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Sign of loop gain in Op Amps for Everyone

Reading through op-amp stability calculations in Op Amps for Everyone, and I am not sure if a minus sign is missing.  I'm going through section 6.3 Noninverting Op Amps.  If I work through the equations, I also get eq 6-13, matching the text, with no minus sign:

But if you look at the figure:

Output should be a*(-Vtest), with a minus sign, and so the total Aβ should also have a minus sign, no?  But that doesn't match 6-13.  What am I missing?  The amplifier oscillates when Aβ = -1, so sign matters.

  • Hello Jonathan,

    Because the equation for closed loop gain is Acl = Aol / (1+Aol*B), a condition where Aol*B is equal to -1 results in an unbounded gain resulting in stability issues.  Aol*B, known as loop gain, is equal to -1 when the magnitude of Aol*B is equal to 1V/V (0dB) and the phase has shifted by 180 degrees.  Phase margin is a measure of the remaining phase shift before the phase has shifted by 180 degrees.  So a phase margin of 45 degrees indicates that the phase has shifted 135 degrees.

    Take a look at the TI Precision Labs videos on Op Amp stability. It contains the same information presented in an easier to understand way and describes a few compensation techniques.  We will continue to add additional compensation techniques in the future.  You can view the videos at the link below:

  • Ok, but that doesn't answer the question. I need to understand how to calculate loop gain for arbitrary circuits. The example given seems inconsistent with the diagram.

    Vout = a*(Vin-Vb) (seems correct polarity)
    Vb = Vout * Zg/(Zf+Zg) (seems correct polarity)

    Vout = a*(Vin-Vout * Zg/(Zf+Zg))
    Vout = a*Vin-a*Vout * Zg/(Zf+Zg))
    Vout+a*Vout * Zg/(Zf+Zg)) = a*Vin
    Vout(1+a * Zg/(Zf+Zg))) = a*Vin
    Vout/Vin = a / (1+a * Zg/(Zf+Zg)))

    So to write this in the standard form Vout/Vin = A/(1+Aβ),

    Aβ = +a*Zg/(Zf+Zg)

    But if you look at the diagram, the gain from Vtest to Vreturn is

    Vreturn/Vtest = -a*Zg/(Zf+Zg)

    with a minus sign

  • Wikipedia has the same block diagram and says "In the diagram shown, the loop gain is the product of the gains of the amplifier and the feedback network, −Aβ. The minus sign is because the feedback signal is subtracted from the input."

    so using this definition of loop gain, it works out correctly:

    loop gain = −Aβ = -a*Zg/(Zf+Zg) = Vreturn/Vtest

    Figure 6-2 in the book has the same issue.  It should say Vreturn/Vtest = -Aβ but it just says Aβ with no minus sign.

  • Some additional links you will find of interest:
    www.ti.com/precisionlabs
    Look at the Stability videos

    e2e.ti.com/.../2645.solving-op-amp-stability-issues.aspx
    Download all 4 Parts