TMDSPLCKIT

Dir Sir/Madam

Can I use TMDSPLCKIT-V3 with G3-library for DC power line or cold wire (no AC power, no DC power)

Thank your for your help.

Hi!

TMDSPLCKIT-V3 in mode G3 or PRIME works for a DC power line or a cold wire successfully!

Hi.

How high of data rate of TMDSPLCKIT-V3 in PRIME mode should I use for the distance of 5km without repeater? Can it run at around 80kbps for the distance of 5km?

Thanks

Hi!

The distance and a bitrate depends on the parameters of your communication line. I use in my experiments the physic line model with 47 Ohm/km and 150 nF/km  (this is model of a very bad communication cable for very low frequency) and the G3-mode of TMDSPLCKIT-V3. I have tuned a G3-tone mask on 24 carriers at the frequency band 1.5-35 kHz. I have achieved the distance to 14 km and the bitrate about 15 kbps. The gain of a transmitter and a receiver was max affordable. I think if to use a good cable (for example a twisted pair cable with <30 Ohm/km & <8 nF/km) the distance &  the bitrate will be better. 

At the PRIME-mode with same physic line model for OFDM-sprctrum 40-90 kHz the distance is about 8 km & a bitrate is about 15 kbps.  

Hello Igor,

Can you give more details on how did u do the tune on the G3 ? Did you edited the application of the original G3 protocol that come with the kit ? Please explain how because i can't import that file as a project or in some way to edit it in CCS. My other problem is that i don't have the API required so i can make my own application based on an G3 or PRIME example and make it to interact with the application or an application developed by me on a PC. Do you have any idea if there is the API available for the USB communication with the KIT or this can be done in another manner ?

Regards.

Hi!

 At my experiments I use the package “G3DevelopmentPackageV5210” for TMDSPLCKIT-V3. I have downloaded this package from “ti.com” in November 2012. This package includes:

-         the G3-firmware for Kit (.out & .hex);

-         the documentation for Kit’s UG & API for HALAFE-layer, PHY-layer, MAC-layer;

-         setup for “PLC Quality Monitor” & “PLC Zero Configuration” – the PC-applications for the familiarization with PLC-technology provided by Kit;

-         the description of the all Kit’s schematic (docking station, AFE031-card, F28069-card);

-         JTAG-USB-driver for a communication with Kit (XDS100 Drivers) through USB;

-         the phy-example project for the realization of the PHY-layer of G3-PLC (with this project I work).

The phy-example project has the file with Main-function ( test_tx_rx.c ). In this file the following structure is initialized (refer to the API of G3-PHY-layer, the function PHY_txSet):

 PHY_txSetData_t test_toneMask_s =

{

  0x2417,//24 – a hex number of tones in a G3-OFDM-spectrum (here 36)

  0xFFFF,// 17 – a hex-number of a start tone in a G3-OFDM-spectrum (here 23*1.5625 kHz)

  0xFFFF,//each bit in “F” indicates the tone is “on” or is “off”

  0x000F,

  0x0000,

  0x0000,

 0x0000

};

 I didn’t import the phy-example project at CCS but I made up it afresh. Unfortunately I don’t know about API-USB for F28069. I think the using of SCI is simpler for a development.

Hi All

I have a question about plcSUITE. Did we get fully functional plcSUITE in a kind of library when we buy TMDSPLCKIT-V3? Can I use this library for a PLC modem that I build my self from F28069 + AFE030, not use TMDSPLCKIT-V3?

What should I do and buy when I build PLC modem base on TI's solution? ( I have to buy devices F28069, AFE030/031, ...and plcSUITE library or I can use the library provided with TMDSPLCKIT-V3).

when I download package from TI home page I do not see any library in order to develop sof ware, only firmware in *.out or *.hex so I think that we can not write software our self. I hope the plcSUITE is fully provided with TMDSPLCKIT-V3.

Do you know the function of EEPROM AT24C1024B on the docking station? Does TMDSPLCKIT-V3 work when this EEPROM is removed?

Thanks for your help.

Regards.

I think you can design a PLC-modem of several variants: F28335+OPA564, F28069+AFE030/031(030 have up to 20-VPP output at 1 A (20 W) and 031 up to 20-VPP output at 1.5 A (30W)). In my opinion a better way is to begin a work with TMDSPLCKIT (V2 or V3) and to design a PLC-modem based on components of a KIT. But I don't understand the development policy of the PLC-branch of TI all right. Let's look at the Description of TMDSPLCKIT-V3: "The included PLC SUITE software supports several communication techniques, including OFDM (PRIME/G3 and FlexOFDM) and SFSK". Certainly there are PRIME and G3 specifications at a free access (2630.PRIME-Spec_v1.3.6.pdf,6354.G3_Specifications_ low_ layers.pdf ). But a sofware development based on OFDM  for a specific DSP is a complicated task which requires a long time. In this case the developer of a PLC-modem should deal with the API of a hardware abstraction layer. The firsts packages for TMDSPLCKIT included these API-libraries of HALAFE-layer, PHY-layer, MAC-layer and LLC for PRIME, G3, PLC-lite and, nay, for flex-OFDM (for KIT-V2 based on F28335 only). Its included some example project also. It could begin to work without the circumstantial learning of a hardware. But now packages for TMDSPLCKIT have became very impoverished, this is a some scrans. And where is the promised support of flex-OFDM, FSK & S-FSK? May be the PLC-branch of TI can provide the API-library at the request of its oficial distributors which vent  TMDSPLCKITs? Anyway the sofware development of PRIME or G3 at the hardware layer of DSP and the creation of a own API-PLC is the long time incubus!  Nobody can guarantee a fast result in this manner. I think the PLC-branch of TI must understand that and must provide better a sofware development support if it's interested in the needs of its customers and in the evolution of PLC-technology.

Hello Igor,

I have some questions and I would appreciate very much if you help me:

- I have an industrial equipment that communicates to a computer through an RS232 port (19,2 Kbps). Can I use the TI PLC Kit to transmitt the RS232 data through power line? If so, should I convert this data for injecting in the PLC Modem?

- What kind of data I inject in the modem? Does the modem need to recognize the devices that will be connected, like an USB host for example? I am interested in using G3 PLC modem for connecting machines and sensors through powerline in an industrial environment. We have RS232 ports, 4-20mA signal, 0-5V signal and so on. It is like a babel tower and I have to insert these data in the modem, so it shows the importance of knowing which type of signal the modem works. It seems to be ethernet port, and converting 4-20mA to ethernet is quite complicated.

- Do you think G3 Protocol PLC can work in the industrial environment?

- It is informed that the G3 protocol power line signal, can pass through transformers. Is it necessary some kind of coupling for that or it is able to pass through primary to secondary without any help? It is not clear in the TI advertisement.

Thank you so much and my apologies for the huge amount of questions, but you seem to have a good experience with PLC.

Samuel

Hello, Samuel! 

I'm not a very good expert at the PLC-technology area. But I'll try to help you.

1 I would advise you to get G3 & PRIME specifications ( http://www.g3-plc.com/ & http://www.prime-alliance.org/). You will have a conceptualization about PLC-technology and about the OFDM-modulation. The OFDM have many advantages but it is very complicated for realisation beside FSK & SFSK. At now the OFDM is a best solution for the industrial environment where many interfrences are.

2 There is one contradiction! G3 & PRIME - technologies work at the frequency above 35 kHz. The distance & the effectuality of your communication will depend on the frequency parameters of your communication line. The quality of power line may be very different. The use of PLC-technology based on the OFDM don't guarantee a communication effective for the each concrete case. At some cases the use of narrowband low frequency modulation like FSK & SFSK will provide the best result beside OFDM (for example Bell202, V.34, V.23 - protocols working at the frequency below 4 kHz). Atweel at the last case the baud rate will be low, but the communication reliability will be very high. There are many producers of Bell202, V.34, V.23 - modems for multi-point communication solutions. I can provide some information if you are interested in. Assuredly these modems have high price. The development of own modem based on TI-solutions will be cheaper.

3 Initially TI supported own flex-OFDM - protocol. This protocol could work at he frequency below 4 kHz. Unfortunately now TI support only G3 & PRIME specifications (the frequency band is above 35 kHz). But it is necesary to add about G3. The API-G3 for F28069 provides the flexible tuning of OFDM-spectrum (refer at the my posts above).

4 Anyway you should execute some experiments with your communication line before the decided choice of a modem and a communication protocol.  

5 The communication between PLC-modem and a data terminal equipment is not a problem. The DSP F28335, F28069, F28M35 have the developed periphery and provide wide abilities for the development of USB, SCI (UART) or CAN - connection. The industrial Bell202,V.23,V.34-modems have RS232/RS485/Ethernet - joint also.

Best regards, Igor

Dear sir Ranjan!

This thread isn't the place for advertising. It allocated for the discussion of technical decisions only. You should be correct.

Igor

Hello Igor,

It is informed that the G3-PLC is able to pass through transformers. Is it necessary to install any device (like couplers, trap filters and so on) on the transformer, or the signal is induced from primary to secondary without the help of any device or coupler?

Thank you so much!

Hello Samuel!

I did not find some information about the need for any special equipment for OFDM-signal propagation through power line transformers. Conversely available sources report that the free passage of the OFDM-signal through the power line transformer is an advantage of OFDM-signal over other types of signal modulation (FSK, SFSK). Refer for example at 7416.TI_Smart_Grid_Solutions-13.pdf, 5810.Flexible-PLC-solution-using-C2000.pdf. But I think at real life it is necesary to approach with caution to those allegations. Frequency parameters of each power line are unique. If you are going to introduce PLC-technology it is impossible do it without experiments on the real power line.

Regards,

Igor 

Hi Igor

Do you know how to change timer of DSP/BIOS from timer 0 to timer 2? As I know DSPBIOS use timer 0 as default, in TI_G3_UG.pdf showes phy_tx_rx use timer 2 for BIOS? I open G3 PHY example, but I can not find how to change BIOS timer. I am a beginner of CCS.

I want to use BIOS for PRIME PHY example. I think PRIME PHY layer is quite similar to G3 PHY layer. However I don't know how to config clock source for BIOS from timer 2. (BIOS should use timer 2 because Timer 0 and Timer 1 are used for physical layer.)

Thank you.

Hello Igor,

Can you send me , please, the JTAG-USB-driver for a communication with Kit (XDS100 Drivers) through USB; I have G3DevelopmentPackageV5210” for TMDSPLCKIT-V3 that we use as a PLC  G3 sniffer.

Thanks in advance

Hi!

Your driver is here 8054.XDS100 Drivers.rar

Regards,

Igor

Hello Bin!

Unfortunately I am a beginner of CCS & C2000 too. I'll think about your question and also I would recommend you to open the own post. Your question is not directly related to PLC-technology but rather, it refers to a specific usage of DSP/BIOS. Also it should be noted that PRIME PHY layer and G3 PHY layer have different API ( the function names may be the same but the parameters are different).

Regards,

Igor

Thanks very much, you save my life

Hi Yassine!

At your service! If you have some problem with PLC-tecnology development I would recommend that you request to plc_support@list.ti.com or to Kim Wonsoo: wonsoo.kim@ti.com. Although I can not guarantee a quick response. Sometimes they do not replay.

Regards,

Igor 

Hi Igor

I want to test with G3. I have some questions:

1. Which modulation did you use to achive 14km with bitrate around 15kbps? How to set test_toneMask_s to get 24 carriers and frequency band from 1.5 to 35kHz?
2. What is the maximum length of payload of TI G3 PHY? How to configure to achive the maximum length of PHY payload? I use successfully only with upto 226 byte. Is it the maximum?
3. How to get the received data of G3 PHY layer? What is wrong with following code?

void cb_ppdu(PHY_ev_t eventID, PHY_cbData_t *cbData_p)

{

  PHY_rxPpdu_t *pPhyPDU = (PHY_rxPpdu_t *)(cbData_p->cbParms.rxPpdu.ppduInfoAddr);

  uint16 idx = 0;

  if (cbData_p->status == PHY_STAT_SUCCESS)

  {

    rxppdu_cnt++;

    /*---- send received data terminal----*/

    printf(" Length = %d ", pPhyPDU->length);

    for(idx = 0; idx < pPhyPDU->length; idx++){

      printf(" %d ",pPhyPDU->data_p[idx]);

    }

    /* free RX ppdu buffers */

     PHY_rxPpduRelease(pPhyPDU);    

     /* Start TX PPDU */

    PHY_txPreparePpdu(&PHY_tx_ppdu_s, cb_tx);

    PHY_txPpdu(&PHY_tx_ppdu_s, cb_tx);

     /* blink led every 8 pkt for testing */

   //    if ((rxppdu_cnt & 0x7) == 0)

   //   GpioDataRegs.GPATOGGLE.bit.GPIO31 = 1;

  }

}

The displayed data on terminal is not as expected. How to get received data of G3 PHY layer correctly?

 I also use some code like flowwing

 for(idx = 0; idx < pPhyPDU->length/2; idx++){

       printf(" %d %d",pPhyPDU->data_p[idx] & 0x00FF, (pPhyPDU->data_p[idx] & 0xFF00) >> 8);

}

 The above code works well with PRIME PHY example.

Please give me some advices.

Thanks

Hi Bin!

I would recommend you to refer at 1754.TI_plcSUITE_hal_api.pdf & 4784.TI_plcSUITE_G3_phy_api.pdf

The G3-phy-example project (from G3DevelopmentPackageV5210) has the file with Main-function ( test_tx_rx.c ). In this file the following structure is initialized (refer to the API of G3-PHY-layer, the function PHY_txSet):

 PHY_txSetData_t test_toneMask_s =

{

  0x2417,//24 – a hex number of tones in a G3-OFDM-spectrum (here 36)

  0xFFFF,// 17 – a hex-number of a start tone in a G3-OFDM-spectrum (here 23*1.5625 kHz)

  0xFFFF,//each bit in “F” indicates the tone is “on” or is “off”

  0x000F,

  0x0000,

  0x0000,

 0x0000

};

Best regards,

Igor

I see some other brave souls out there trying to make heads and tails out of the PLC world.  I have a pair of tmdsplckit-v3 modems I've been evaluating as well.  Running them in point to point mode I notice the Zero Config software connects at 57600 baud.  I believe if you want to change baud you will need to alter the firmware and run zero config from the command line.  Does anyone have any experience with this?

Hello Gary!

1 "if you want to change baud you will need to alter the firmware" - no doubt about it!

2 "run zero config from the command line" - it seems a road to nowhere. In my opinion the best way is the programming of MCU-SCI-interface (SCI-A of TMDSPLCKIT-V3) in the new firmware and the use of some other more simple PC-application for exchange data via COM-port.

Regards,

Igor

Hi Igor,

I ran the plc_application_suite baudrate=9600 from cmd line and seems to work OK.  Of course it doesn't find anything because the baud of the modem is 57600.  If you look at the log page it shows it tried 3 times at 9600.  I'm trying to connect to a e-meter.  An EVM430-F47197.

Hi!

By the way when I ran V-3-modems with the application Zero Config in PHY-test mode, I have not seen baud rate above 14400 in the statistics window of Zero Config. But maybe it's only the features of the test mode.

Igor

Hello Gary!

I'm curious. What is the protocol you are going to implement: G3 or PRIME? And why?

Regards,

Igor

Hi Igor,

Curious, I noticed you are using “G3DevelopmentPackageV5210” I have “G3DevelopmentPackageV6010”.  Perhaps that is why.  Also in TI_PLC_G3_HOSTAPP_EXAMPLE.zip\HostApplications\SerialCommunications\ the SerialPort.h file has a constant declared: static const int DefaultBaudRate = 57600;

Thanks for pointing the actual bps rate out.  The PHY test I ran this mourning shows ontime throughput 6475 bps and actual of 5461 bps.  I believe this is the bps modem to modem.   I believe the bps PC to modem is 57600. 

I have tried both.  BTW Good Mourning.  The literature I've read seems to favor G3.  At this point all I'm trying to do is connect one modem to the PC, run the e-meter calibration application and communicate to the e-meter connected to the other modem.  I'm not sure if the PC modem pair needs to be connected at 9600 baud but it makes sense the e-meter modem pair does as the e-meter is programmed as such.

Hi Gary!

Maybe... Maybe...At all I tried to use bouth package (G3-V5210 and PRIME-V6000). The funny thing is that in both cases the PHY-test of PLC_Application_Suite.exe (Zero Config) gives the same result: ~14400 bps. For all three types of modulation (DQPSK, DBPSK, D8PSK). Perhaps TI-PLC-branch "sharpens" its KIT's firmware on such speed. I worked with phy_example_projects from the above packages too. The main advantage of G3 is the flexibility of frequency settings of OFDM-modulation . The advantage of PRIME is higher baud rate. By the way you can refer to 5127.G3-PRIME-COMPAR.pdf. Maybe this will interest for you. 

Regards,

Igor

I have read that article and sums it up in the conclusion. "Furthermore, according to both specification and simulation results, the FEC applied in PLC G3 is more powerful, while
PRIME is the less complex system."

Well ... Thanks for the nice conversation.

Good luck,

Igor

Hi

I am doing a project on Power line Communication.Please Help me.I will provide Details about my project.Communicating to all transformers within the range of local Electricity Board Office through power line.

Which is the best micro controller for my application?

Which is the best communication protocol for my application?

please help me

Waiting for your reply

Sid

Hello Sidheek!

1 I would recommend you refer to 6428.TI_Smart_Grid_Solutions-13.pdf, 3005.G3-PRIME-COMPAR.pdf, 1778.G3_Specifications_ low_ layers.pdf, 2117.PRIME-Spec_v1.3.6.pdf.

2 You should begin with TMDSPLCKIT-V3 based on F28069 or F28M35 MCU.

3 When you will choose the protocol (G3 or PRIME) you should pay attention to the following:

- G3 provides flexible frequency tune of spectrum and more robust, but one is more complex for development;

- PRIME is simpler for development and one provides higher baud rate, but one is less robust and haven't good frequency flexibility.

Thus primarily you should decide about used frequency band and desired baud rate.

Regards,

Igor

Hello Igor

Thanks for your quick reply and the documents provided by you were really helpful.As I am concerned both G3 and PRIME are very complex Protocols .Data rate is not a Key issue in my Project but it must be reliable , error free.I have few doubts on TMDSPLCKIT-V3.

1.Do these development kits really able to communicate  over transformer(2 near by houses on both sides of transformer one is mine!) in G3.

2. What is the Maximum the distance it can communicate  ?

3.If both are used within a house is it possible to communicate between floors?

Thank you

Waiting For Reply

Sid

Hi!

1 TMDSPLCKIT-V3 contains two modem. G3 & PRIME signals pass through power transformers successfully (at a first approximation).

2  For certain settings of the G3-protocol you can get communications distance up to 14 km (at least this is the best result of my experiments).

3 It is not important where your modems is placed. You can connect modems via the standard power socket. The main factor is the quality of the communication link between the modems (mainly these are values of running capacity and running resistive losses).

Regards,

Igor

Hi

Thanks again,all the information was very useful.Within few days i will have TMDSPLCKIT-V3 development kit.But again to i will need help to implement G3 protocol in MCU.

Does anyone have example codes for Basic blocks of G3 ie; Scrambler,RS-Encoder,interleaver etc .

Please reply

Regards

Sid

Hello!

You don't need Scrambler, RS-Encoder, interleaver etc. TI provides API-libraries for G3 & PRIME protocols.

Regards,

Igor

Hi,

Do these API libraries are  for using only along with TMDSPLCKIT-V3,V development kit? Or they can be used with any c2000 family micro controller?

finally  when i make a stand alone g3-plc transceiver controlled by some other micro controller can i use these libraries in my project?

Regards

Sid

Hi!

For all I know TI provides API-PLC for F28035 (PRIME), F28335 (PRIME), F28069 (PRIME & G3), F28M35 (G3 and maybe PRIME). At now TMDSPLCKIT-V3 is equipped with controlCARD based on F28069 or F28M35. Refer please to http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/apps/smartgrid/plcmodem/overview.page.

Regards,

Igor

Hi

Igor i understand

have any one  used the API libraries provided by TI?do these libraries can be used while coding any c2000 family based controller.

Waiting for reply

Sid

Hi Sid,

I did some coding based on the supplied phy_example on a F28069.

I think only the F28069 and the F28M35 are the supported C2000 devices by the API. Otherwise you will have to rewrite the HAL layer I suppose.

Wim

Hello Sidheek!

For example, I have used this libraries (G3 & PRIME) for F28335 & F28069 when I experimented with TMDSPLCKIT-V3,V2 quite successfully. But I did not develop the Smart Grid. I worked only with the physical layer (without MAC & LLC). I was interested in the maximum communication distance in the first place. But for each MCU I have used the library version which have been designed by TI specially for this MCU (not for any MCU of C2000-series).

Regards,

Igor 

Hi

Thank you very much for your valuable replies Igor and Wim.So If i have to use given libraries i must choose F28069 or F28M35.

In this folder C:\Texas Instruments\G3DevelopmentEvalPackageV6010\F2806x\SW\bin they have given hex and '.out 'files too.

What is the effect  of Just burning these files to F28069?.

Wim .P you used the API's given.Do please show me an example code ready to be burn with CCStudio?

Regards

Sid

Hello Sidheek!

I would prefer to use TMDSPLCKIT-V3 based on F28069. At least TI provides API of G3 and PRIME for this device. Thus you can try bouth protocol. What about API of PRIME   for F28M35 I have not accurate information. Try to request plc_support@list.ti.com. If you will decide to buy KIT based on F28069 I can provide phy_example_project for G3 & PRIME with the necessary libraries (API). As for the firmwares (.out, .hex) which are included at delivery package, these firmwares are intended for demonstration purposes only with using PC-applications "PLC Quality Monitor" or "PLC Zero Configuration".

Regards,

Igor

Hi Sid,

I used the phy_example as a starting basis and start writing my own application on top of it. Unfortunately I can not provide you the code as I am bounded to NDA with the customer I did this for.

Please look at the following thread:

http://e2e.ti.com/support/microcontrollers/c2000/f/171/p/195356/813557.aspx#813557

Hope this helps.

Wim

Hi Wim,

I'm using CCS 5.4 and downloaded g3_plc_F2806x_AFE031_CRC16_MSB.out to one of the plc modems.  The modem works fine except the zero configuration gui now will not flash the firmware and reports that the "flash firmware utility on the FLASH-D is missing".   Did you run into this?

Hi Gary!

Obviously at the flash settings of CCS all flash partitions (A-H) were installed for erase. This is not problem. Why do you want to use sbin-format exactly (which is used by flashing procedure of zero configuration gui)? For flashing procedure of modems I would recommend you applay C2Prog Code Skin (hex -format) or CCS (out-format). By the way when you need to flash the firmware for bouth modems at once (during the work with your PLC-project) the use of C2Prog is very convenient (you connect bouth modems to PC and just choose needed port at "Configurate port" option).

Regards,

Igor 

Hi Igor,

I was just becoming familiar with the tools available such as CCS.  As for the flashing with the sbin-format, I was only trying to return the modem back to it's original state.  The User's Guide shows an older version of CCS that looks nothing like v5.4 and refers to a "flash_upgrade.out" in Appendix B, that installs the flash utility.  I can't seem to find "flash_upgrade.out" anywhere.

Best Regards

GM

Hi Gary!

For CCSv5.2 flashing procedure is set at project properties: "Properties->Debug->(your target device) Flash Settings". I don't know about CCSv5.4 (probably the same).

Regards,

Igor

Hi Igor,

Actually I just downloaded the .out without opening a project.  I selected a target, launched it, run>connect target, then run>load>load program, navigate to .out file and click OK.  I'm guessing the flash utility isn't in the .out file.  I found a project example in c:\ti\controlSUITE\libs\utilities\flash_api\2806x\v100\ and got it to compile and download but the utility still doesn't work.  I'm not even sure it's the right utility. 

thanks for the input though.

GM