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Problems with the chemical selection (and maybe incorrect settings for lead acid batteries)

Other Parts Discussed in Thread: BQSTUDIO, BQ34Z100EVM, BQ34Z100

Hi,

trying to get a chem id didn't work as expected (too much deviation).
So maybe something fundamental is wrong.

We use two sealed Lead-Acid batteries in series (RS 537-5488 12V7.0AH/20HR Web: uk.rs-online.com/.../ ).
They are connected to the bq34z100EVM and i am using the EV2300 and bqStudio (1.3.51) to connect to the eval board.
I've updated the firmware of the bq34z100 on the eval board to bq34z100G1 0100_0_16.
Voltage and current are calibrated and the values that are read out are very exact.
I've calibrated the temperature of the internal sensor today, it was about 2-3°C too high.
I have set the chem id to 0x800 (but want to find the best match using the chemical id selection tool).

This is mainly what i changed:
Data Memory - Configuration
===========================
Design Capacity = 7000 mAh / 6 cells = 1167 mAh
Design Energy = Design Capacity * 2 V per cell = 2334 mWh

Cell charge Voltage Tx-Tx: 2250 mV (?? correct ??)

Pack Configuration:
VOLSET = 1 (external voltage divider)
TEMPS = 0 (internal temperature sensor)

Number of series cell = 12 (6 cells per battery * 2 batteries)

Flash Update OK Cell Volt = 2800 mV (2800 mV × Number Of Series Cells × 5000/Voltage Divider = 4467 mV which is too high and results in an error. In the TI forum they said to just set it to 2800 mV)

Data Memory - Gas Gauging
=========================
Cell Terminate Voltage = 1833 mV (11V / 6 cells)
Qmax Cell 0 = Design Capacity = 1167 mAh

Data Memory - Calibration
=========================
CC Gain = 10175 mOhm (Calibrated for Evalboard)
CC Delta = 10156 mOhm (Calibrated for Evalboard)

Voltage Divider = 37609 mV (Calibrated for Evalboard with 32V Voltage divider!)

Appended is the 0116_0117.zip containing the files for the chemical id selection online tool.
But it responded with an error (0116_0117-report.zip).
The batteries i used for chem id selection are not brand new, could this be a serious problem?
Since i have no external temperature sensor connected to the eval board i used the internal temperature. I have only checked the temperature of the batteries from time to time and they didn't get warm.
How important is the exact temperature of the batteries for the chem id selection? Is it possible to connect an external thermistor to the eval board?

Best Regards

Sebastian

4846.0116_0117.zip

2275.0116_0117-report.zip

DataMemory.gg.csv.zip

  • The results will not be acceptable for selecting a ChemID and we may have to characterize the battery. I do have a concern about the data. There is a sharp drop in the voltage during the middle of the discharge and the current decreases at the same time. This should not occur, so something must have gone wrong. Are you using two six cell batteries in series? If so, how are they connected together? You should use a short, low impedance cable or bus bar. This impedance will affect the results as well. You may want to collect the data using one battery to see if this improves the results, but this device is not going to work very well, if the system will see this type of voltage drop in normal operation.
  • Yes, i'm using the two six cell batteries in series. They are connected via a short cable that should be designed for this:

    Could a damaged or aged battery be the result of  the sharp voltage drop? I would rerun the cycle with other batteries to see if that makes any change if that could help.

  • The optimization cycle should be run with new cells. Perhaps one of the cells is damaged.
  • I have repeated the chemical id selection cycle with batteries that should be fine.
    This time there is no voltage/current drop.
    But the deviation is even higher than with the defective batteries (ok, but compared to another chem id).
    The batteries were discharged with C/20 instead of C/10 (resistors were getting so hot and i remembered that you wrote in the forum it would be good to use C/20 with lead acid batteries to get more exact results: https://e2e.ti.com/support/power_management/battery_management/f/180/p/468339/1682050#1682050).
    But the tool reported that the discharge cycle took too long (more than 12 hours).
    This time the recommended chemical id is 0800, which is (according to the description) the best match for our batteries i guess.
    Does it make sense to repeat it with C/10 discharge?

    0113_0114.zip

    0113_0114-report.zip

  • Additional question:
    For the chemical id selection (and i guess it is the same for the optimization/learning cycle) is it important to have a _constant_ current discharge?
    We just used resistors where the discharge current is going down at the end. Could this be a problem?
  • Has someone an answer to one of our questions?
    I've ran another cycle, but the discharge was too deep. Either this was the problem or the batteries have no match. It resulted in a too great deviation.

    Another problem:
    When i try to create a golden image with bqStudio 1.3.51 i always get the following error:
    ---------------------------
    Golden Image
    ---------------------------
    The creation of one or more golden image files has failed.
    ---------------------------
    OK
    ---------------------------

    And at the bottom this is shown:
    java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 5

    The .screc only contains this:
    S00F00004657303130305F30305F31360D
    S70500000000FA

    The other files are empty.
    I'm using the default path and file name. The connection to the eval board is working without problems.
    Is there anything i can do to get more details about the error? The Errors view is empty.

    Best Regards
    Sebastian

  • Sebastian,

    Are you using bqStudio version 1.3.45? If not, then try updating the program from the bqStudio website. You can try this bqz to see if it helps. Place it in this directory.

    C:\ti\BatteryManagementStudio\config

    Tom

    5734.0100_0_16-bq34z100G1.bqz

  • Tom,

    i've tried it with 1.3.52 and 1.3.47 and even replaced the bqz file with the one you attached.
    The only difference now is that there is no error message popup any longer. But the java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException: 5 message still is displayed.
    The generated files are still the same as described above.
    I've let the setup install the appropriate java runtime when prompted.

    Sebastian
  • Sebastian,
    I will pass the bqStudio error on to our tools group to see whether they have a suggestion to help. Have you tried a different computer? We have also seen problems when Windows is set to a non-English option. I saw that you tried to run the GPCCALC tool and it did not find a match for your cells. Have you try running the discharge with just one pack? Otherwise, we may have to characterize your cell and create a new ChemID.

    Tom
  • Thank you Tom,

    i have not yet tried it on another computer. But i tried to uninstall bqStudio completely and delete the BatteryManagementStudio directory. Then reinstalled bqStudio. The error was still the same.

    Here is the content of the "Configuration" page in the "Installation Details" dialog, maybe a developer can have a look at it:

     

    bqStudio_Configuration.txt
    *** Date: Montag, 9. Mai 2016 um 15:22:26 Mitteleurop�ische Sommerzeit
    
    *** Platform Details:
    
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    C:\ti\BATTER~2\\plugins/org.eclipse.equinox.launcher.win32.win32.x86_1.1.300.v20150602-1417\eclipse_1611.dll
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    java.runtime.name=Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment
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    java.specification.name=Java Platform API Specification
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    org.osgi.framework.uuid=8018b173-c715-0016-1a20-fbc2071c0c38
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    *** Plug-in Registry:
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    *** User Preferences:
    #Mon May 09 15:22:26 CEST 2016
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/PercentageCharge=0
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/PercentageDischarge=100
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/ALTERNATE_OPEN_NEW_PERSPECTIVE=OPEN_PERSPECTIVE_REPLACE
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/EDITORLIST_DISPLAY_FULL_NAME=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/OPEN_AFTER_DELAY=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/VIEW_MINIMUM_CHARACTERS=1
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/COLOR_ICONS=true
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.base/always_external_browser=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/SELECT_ON_HOVER=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/PercentageChrgMV=9000
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/PercentageDischrgMV=15300
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/HeapStatus.showMax=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/RemainingCapacityAlarm=false
    /instance/com.ti.evswsdk.global/bqSBBViewType=1
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.global/bqSBBViewType=0
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.base/scope=
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.dataflashview/Import\ Parameter\ Length=true
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/EDITOR_TAB_POSITION=128
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/BIDI_SUPPORT=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/initialFastViewBarLocation=bottom
    /instance/com.ti.evswsdk.eccview/AdvancedView=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/TimeFormat=HH\:mm\:ss
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/OPEN_NEW_PERSPECTIVE=OPEN_PERSPECTIVE_REPLACE
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/SHOW_OPEN_ON_PERSPECTIVE_BAR=true
    /instance/org.eclipse.ui/showIntro=false
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.ui/browser.y=225
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/EDITORLIST_SORT_CRITERIA=0
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.ui/browser.maximized=false
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.ui/browser.x=225
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/Log\ Interval=4000
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.ui/browser.w=1024
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/EDITOR_TAB_WIDTH=3
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    @com.ti.evswsdk.global=1.2.0.201604151139
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/SHOW_SYSTEM_JOBS=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/ENABLE_CONFIGURABLE_PROJECT_WIZARD=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/Take_Action_When_Dis=1
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/PROMPT_WHEN_SAVEABLE_STILL_OPEN=true
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/KEY_CONFIGURATION_ID=org.eclipse.ui.defaultAcceleratorConfiguration
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/FullyCharged=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/coolBarVisible=true
    file_export_version=3.0
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/SINGLE_CLICK_METHOD=0
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.ui/browser.h=768
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/RECENT_FILES=4
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/OPEN_PERSPECTIVE_MODE=0
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/ENABLE_32_STICKY_CLOSE_BEHAVIOR=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/OPEN_ON_SINGLE_CLICK=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/DateFormat=yyyy-MM-dd
    /instance/org.eclipse.ui/SHOW_TRADITIONAL_STYLE_TABS=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.dataflashview/Auto\ Export\ Interval=300000
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/ENABLED_DECORATORS=
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/FullyDischarged=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.dataflashview/DF_Export_Format=0
    @org.eclipse.help.base=4.0.301.v20160212-1500
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    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/LINK_NAVIGATOR_TO_EDITOR=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/ENABLE_COOL_BARS=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/OverTemperatureAlarmSet=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/MULTI_KEY_ASSIST=true
    \!/=
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/REUSE_DIRTY_EDITORS=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.datagraph/No\ of\ Axis\ Allowed=6
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/CLOSE_EDITORS_ON_EXIT=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/TerminateChargeAlarmSet=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/TEXT_DIRECTION=
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/USE_WINDOW_WORKING_SET_BY_DEFAULT=false
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    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.global/BitFlagHigh=205,92,92
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    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/REUSE_OPEN_EDITORS_BOOLEAN=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.dataflashview/ClassNames=Calibration
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/EDITOR_MINIMUM_CHARACTERS=-1
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/shouldPromptForEnablement=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/OverchargedAlarmSet=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/KEYS_PREFERENCE_SELECTED_TAB=0
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/disableNewFastView=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/ENABLE_DETACHED_VIEWS=true
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/STICKY_CYCLE=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/PROJECT_OPEN_NEW_PERSPECTIVE=OPEN_PERSPECTIVE_REPLACE
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/VIEW_TAB_POSITION=128
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/REUSE_OPEN_EDITORS=8
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/DOCK_PERSPECTIVE_BAR=topLeft
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/ChargeRisesAbove=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/ChargeDropsBelow=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/Seperator=,
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/ElapsedTimeIntervalFormat=s.SSS
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/USE_COLORED_LABELS=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/VoltRisesAbove=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/ChgrCtrlPin=2
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/VoltDropsBelow=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/SHOW_OTHER_IN_PERSPECTIVE_MENU=true
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/ENABLE_MIN_MAX=true
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/SHOW_MULTIPLE_EDITOR_TABS=true
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.base/dialog_infopop=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.datagraph/Data-Graph\ ViewType=1
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.dataflashview/Write\ to\ Device=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.global/BitFlagIntermediate=255,255,255
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/overridepresentation=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/DISABLE_DIALOG_FONT=false
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.base/window_infopop=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/TerminateDischargeAlarm=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/showIntro=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/Take_Action_When_Ch=1
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/EDITORLIST_SELECTION_SCOPE=1
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    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/LAYOUT_DIRECTION=0
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/SHOW_TEXT_ON_PERSPECTIVE_BAR=true
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/Scan\ Interval=4000
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/SHOW_FILTERED_TEXTS=true
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/SHOW_MEMORY_MONITOR=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/HeapStatus.updateInterval=500
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.dataflashview/DFTableFont=1|Arial|8.0|0|WINDOWS|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|Arial
    @org.eclipse.help.ui=4.0.100.v20140401-0608
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.global/BitFlagLow=50,205,50
    /instance/org.eclipse.help.base/search_from_browser=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/WORKBENCH_SAVE_INTERVAL=5
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/SHIFT_OPEN_NEW_PERSPECTIVE=OPEN_PERSPECTIVE_REPLACE
    @org.eclipse.ui=3.107.0.v20150507-1945
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui/ENABLE_ANIMATIONS=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.dataflashview/Disable\ Flag\ Display=false
    /bundle_defaults/com.ti.evswsdk.sbsview/SBSTableFont=1|Arial|8.0|0|WINDOWS|1|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|0|0|0|Arial
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/DISABLE_OPEN_EDITOR_IN_PLACE=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/EDITORLIST_PULLDOWN_ACTIVE=false
    /bundle_defaults/org.eclipse.ui.workbench/ENABLE_NEW_MENUS=true
    @com.ti.evswsdk.eccview=1.0.1.201604151139
    

    I have not tried to run the discharge with only one pack, but if that could help i can run a cycle.

    Sebastian

  • Sebastian,
    Our tools group requested that you send the .log file from this directory.

    C:\ti\BatteryManagementStudio\workspace\.metadata

    Tom
  • Tom,

    here is the requested .log file:

    .log.zip

    I have deleted the old .log file. Then started bqStudio, let it try to create the Golden Image, got the error, closed bqStudio.

    Sebastian

  • I have run the discharge cycle with one pack and C/20, but the deviation is still very high (32.36% for Chem ID 0809)

    Here are the files:

    0113_Cycle2_0.05C.zip

    0113_Cycle2_0.05C-report.zip

    This is the log file that bqStudio created:

    bqstudio_log.zip

    I wonder why Chem ID 0809 is the closest match with 17Ah capacity.

    Could you check if the log is ok and the discharge cycle was done right?

    Sebastian

  • Yes, I saw the error report and checked the data. I will check with our battery expert, but I think that we will have to characterize your battery.
  • We really would like the battery to be characterized. I have not yet received any information about this process.
    Where do we need to ship them? Or is it faster if TI orders some batteries directly from RS?
  • I sent the information needed to submit cells for characterization.
  • Tom,

    thank you, we received the information for submitting cells for characterization.

    Do you have any information about the problem to create the Golden Image in bqStudio?

    Sebastian
  • I do not recall the golden image problem. What was the problem?
  • I refer to the problem that i get an error message when trying to create a Golden Image file in bqStudio (some posts above: e2e.ti.com/.../1848764 ).
    The tools team requested the .log file.
    Has it helped to determine the problem?
    I can try to reproduce the error on another computer if it didn't help.

    Sebastian

  • Quick update:
    Our client decided to use the YUASA NP7-12 battery as it is already characterized.
    I hope we get good results.
    The problem with creating the golden image files is solved with a workaround that can be found here:
    e2e.ti.com/.../517242