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WEBENCH® Tools/LM5022: Crazy design output. Parts overlapping not exporting to EAGLE. More than 2 layers even though only 2 show

Phillip Scanlon
Prodigy 110 points
Part Number: LM5022
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: TINA-TI

Tool/software: WEBENCH® Design Tools

I am trying hard to get a simple start point for my design but some of the parts overlap and there are more than 2 layers in the design even though when you look in the simulations panel it only shows the top and bottom layers.

Trying to get a design for 11 to 12VDC input 170VDC @ 100mA output.

Is this software supported ?

  • 0
    TI__Guru 68335 points
    If I understand your question correctly, you can export the Webench board design to Eagle by click the Export in the top row icons of the Webench webpage of the design, and select Eagle.
  • 0 in reply to Youhao Xi
    Prodigy 110 points
    Correct.
    But it does not import because of the above errors.
  • 0 in reply to Phillip Scanlon
    TI__Guru 68335 points
    Sorry what errors do you refer to?
  • 0 in reply to Youhao Xi
    Prodigy 110 points
    I will quote the original post.

    "I am trying hard to get a simple start point for my design but some of the parts overlap and there are more than 2 layers in the design even though when you look in the simulations panel it only shows the top and bottom layers.

    Trying to get a design for 11 to 12VDC input 170VDC @ 100mA output.

    Is this software supported ?"
  • 0 in reply to Phillip Scanlon
    TI__Guru 68335 points
    I see. I found the diode and the output capacitor are overlapping. This needs to be corrected by our Webench support group. I will send a notice to them.
  • 0 in reply to Youhao Xi
    Prodigy 110 points
    Lets face it.
    This is never going to be fixed.
    Last revision was in 2014 ?
    It's not just components overlapping. The extra traces in the board are on even though it is set to 2 layer not 4.
    This really is broken.
    Please just admit it and close it down as it is wasting everyone's time.
  • 0 in reply to Phillip Scanlon
    TI__Guru 68335 points
    Calm down, please. It should not have happened, I admit. This is the first time I noticed such issue, and I have notified the Webench group right after I replied to your previous msg.
  • 0 in reply to Youhao Xi
    Prodigy 110 points
    If you try to make any boost converter from 11 to 12VDC input and 170VDC ouput @ 0.01A it will fail.
    That is broken to me.
  • 0 in reply to Phillip Scanlon
    TI__Guru 68335 points
    Sorry, broken by what? By the way, do you post to resolve the pcb export issue or to ask to remove the design from Webench? I am confused...
  • 0 in reply to Youhao Xi
    Prodigy 110 points
    No .. my problem is with workbench.
    If you read the original post carefully you will see that for any design of high voltage boost converter there are problems.

    In my design I used 11 to 12VDC on the input with 170VDC on the output at 100mA.
    None of the supplied "solutions" are error free.

    The problems are many. Here are a few.

    Most "solutions" have overlapping components.
    Some solutions have "Custom" components with impossible values like 0 Ohm's ESR for capacitors.
    All solutions have 4 layer boards and can't be changed to 2 layer in the simulator as they only show top and bottom trace.
    Should I make a youtube video and upload it ? To show you how messed up this software is ?
  • 0 in reply to Phillip Scanlon
    TI__Guru 68335 points
    really appreciate your frank feedback and we will improve our support. We will investigate if this is only related to high voltage scenario or is a generic flaw of the Webench. In fact, most Webench PCB designs are based on existing standard EVM boards, which are verified experimentally. This one may be one of the few that were messed up.

    Don't bother to make a video, but it may help if our webench expert can contact you directly. Do you mind to give me your contact info?
  • 0 in reply to Youhao Xi
    Prodigy 110 points
    Sure I am happy to help resolve this. Please go ahead and supply my details.
    It would be great if the HV designer in this actually worked.
  • 0 in reply to Phillip Scanlon
    TI__Genius 14455 points
    Hi Phillip, We will be contacting you directly by email to investigate the issue that you have reported.

    Regards,
    Gerold
  • 0 in reply to Gerold Dhanabalan - Online Design Tools
    Prodigy 110 points

    Thanks for direct help, but it is still a fail.

    I am giving up on this software. Great idea, badly implemented and no longer being developed or supported.

    And, most important It does not work (not for my inputs anyway) 170VDC Out with 11-12VDC in @ 100mA. Try it ... you will see it break.

    Maybe it's fine for some simple little boost converter with less demanding specs. I don't know but I suspect not.

    Does anyone really make boards with this stuff ? really ?

    The TI guys can't see that it is broken. I mean hats off to TI for actually trying to get something like this off the ground but unfortunately TI have not achieved an orbital velocity with this project and are about to come crashing down to earth with this one.

    The latest design TI have shared is not working. And despite my best efforts TI can't seem to see there is a problem.

    webench.ti.com/.../webench5.cgi is a failure.

    Have you even tried to export it to eagle ?

    Try making real world boards from this stuff ... really go ahead, don't just look at the pretty thermal simulator.

    Also, there seems to me no way to turn off 4 layers.

    2 or 4 layer is not a major deal breaker .. but even so. Why is this option of making it a 2 layer board even there if it does not work ?

    Still getting errors when it is exported to Eagle CAD. That's the main problem... layout software that does not make nice layouts that can be used in a CAD package !

    Not broken ? Really ?

    The design above was made by you guys. The pro's !

    What chance has a casual user got of making this horrible software work ?

    I mean really.

    Can someone please tell me this is not abandonware , long forgotten by the developers ?

    Nobody is really currently working on it to improve it. Correct ?

    No bugs like this are being ironed out are they ?

  • 0 in reply to Phillip Scanlon
    TI__Genius 14455 points
    Hi Phillip,
    We have been trying to help you by having your questions answered by email. Nevertheless, I will repeat some of the answers.

    The default stack up is 4 layer in the exported files. For two layer boards, the middle layers will be blank and we can only see through hole pads and Via’s. For thermal simulations, we show the two layers that are being simulated – for the two layer board example.

    The board layout in the tool is typical for the EVM (Evaluation module) conditions. When we use the layout to export components to support a 170V design, the components tend to be large and will not fit on the board. This is a known limitation because the software cannot automatically change the board layout to fit these large components. You could use the components recommended to design the schematic and lay the board out based on the recommendations given in the datasheet.

    Regards,
    Gerold
  • 0 in reply to Gerold Dhanabalan - Online Design Tools
    TI__Genius 14455 points

    Hi Phillip,

      Here is a TINA-TI simulation showing the circuit simulation results of the generated design which should give your more confidence. 

    Here is the TINA-TI file that was used for the simulation.

    webench_design_tps40210.tsc

    Regards,

    Gerold

  • 0 in reply to Gerold Dhanabalan - Online Design Tools
    Prodigy 110 points
    I appreciate your help. I really do.

    However.

    This software does NOT produce CAD output (for the above specifications).
    No file to download, modify, or fix.

    If it did then of course the designer could adjust component sizes etc.

    As it stands the CAD output functionality of this software is broken and as you say the only other option is to go with the datasheet layout recommendations.

    I get it though. It half works for EVM designs. Why bother though.
    I may as well just use the recommended layouts in the datasheets.

    This software is a waste of time.

    I will be spending no more of it on this.

    Thank you for yours.