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TPS65217: TPS65217B PWR_EN pin maximum deglitch time

Part Number: TPS65217
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: , TPS65910, TPS650250

what is the maximum deglitch time for the PWR_EN pin (pin 9)? The datasheet mentions 50 mS TYP. ("not tested in production"). (page 14/91).

  • Catalin,
    Your question is very specific, I will forward it to the product specialist for this part.
  • Thank you ,
    I'm looking forward for the answer....

    regards,
    Catalin
  • Catalin,

    If the datasheet does not give a minimum or maximum value, then I am not able to speculate what this value could be. Most timing parameters are not testing in production because the entire test could be shorter than a 5 or 8-second timer (the TPS65217 has both!)

    When PWR_EN is transitioning from Low to High, it needs to be high and stable withing 5 seconds from the beginning of the power-up sequence (as shown in Figure 3 on page 19 of the datasheet). Compared to 5 seconds, 50ms is a negligible amount of time and the maximum will not be 2 orders of magnitude higher than the typical (5s/50ms = 100).

    On a falling edge of PWR_EN (High to Low), the power-down sequence is executed immediately after the de-glitch time expires, but generally speaking the falling edge is not as critical for de-glitching. A High-to-Low transition is usually fast and deliberate.

    Are you having any specific issues with the TPS65217 device that are related to the de-glitch time on the PWR_EN pin?

  • Hi Brian,

    I'm not concern about PWR_EN Low to HIGH transition... however, I'm really interested in the HIGH to LOW transition. I'm using the PWR_EN to initiate the power-down sequence....in the situation when the power plug is removed from the system and there is no battery in the system...so I need to rely in the charge accumulated into some big caps to keep the Vin to the PMIC long enough (minimum the deglitch max time...) to allow the PMIC to reliable complete the power-down sequence....
    Unfortunately, I'm seeing an extremely wide spread of the time between the PWR_EN going LOW to the time the power-down sequence is initiated...??? I've even seen close to 1000mS !!!!!! Is this something real ???!!! am I looking at a faulty chip or something?
    this wide time happens only on PWR_EN going LOW....the power-on after PWR_EN going HIGH is always within 50 mS (+/-20% or so....). I will provide some scope traces shortly....

    regards
  • Yes, please provide scope traces if possible.

    I believe your issue is related to the value of the OFF bit and the Wait 1s timer.

    I don't think there is a wide spread. Actually, I think it is quite binary :-) and we can resolve your issue quickly.

  • the PMIC is at default register values (the PMIC has not been programed yet.... I'm using just the default values.); the default value for the OFF bit is 0 so according with the state diagram, upon PWR_EN = 0 all the rails (DCDCx) except the LDO1 suppose to shut down immediately (considering the deglitch time 50mS TYP), and entering SLEEP state after 1s

    Also from the datasheet (pg.18/91):
    "
    A power-down sequence is executed if one of the following events occurs:
    • The SEQDWN bit is set.
    • The PWR_EN pin is pulled low.
    • The push-button is pressed for > 8 s.
    • The nRESET pin is pulled low.
    • A fault occurs in the IC (OTS, UVLO, PGOOD failure).
    • The PWR_EN pin is not asserted (pulled high) within 5 seconds of a power-up event and the OFF bit is set to
    1.
    "
    So in my case the PWR_EN is pulled low.
    I hope I'm reading the datasheet correctly ....

    regards,

    note:

    I'm working on those scopes.....
  • please see the attached scopes:poff.pdf

  • PMIC_sch.pdfplease see the attached sch just for clarity.....

    regards,

  • Hi again Brian,

    Just fyi; I can easily replicate the wide variation in the time between PWR_EN going LOW and power-off sequence initiating on the TI provided TPS65217EVM. I could measure between 40mS or so up to more than 900ms ... pretty much same variations as seen in our board.

    regards,
  • Hi,

    just one more detail:

    this thread is related with an old one :

    e2e.ti.com/.../2311964

    regards,
  • Thanks for all of the detailed info Catalin. It may take me a couple days to analyze your data and try re-create it on my lab bench.

    I should be able to reply by Monday at the latest.

  • Hi again Brian,


    As I mentioned, the PWR_EN deglitch time variations can be very easy replicated on a TPS65217EVM module, just by using the PWR_EN pin (pin2 on the JP9) and taking it LOW while monitoring the DCDCx

    For the over-shoots on the DCDC3, it become quite obvious that the slower the Vin decays in the UVLO (3.3V) area the easier it is to replicate the overshoots. Basically a slower decaying Vin (5.2V)  reaching the UVLO will dramatically increase the chances that an overshoot on DCDC3 (and DCDC1) occurs.....I got to a point where I can replicate it very easy (1 in 3 power-down...) with a very slow decaying Vin (5.2V). Basically I went the other way...so, I made sure that the Vin (5.2V) will go down very sharp at power down and the chances of replicating it are less that 1 in 100 power downs....

    regards,

  • Catalin,

    I apologize for the delay, but I am unable reproduce your issue on my lab bench setup using the TPS65217CEVM.

    The scope is setup just like your attachment and both rails (VDCDC3 and LDO3) go low approximately 50ms after PWR_EN goes low, and VDCDC3 never spikes up above its setpoint.

    Is it possible there is something unique about the way you are testing the EVM? 

    Are you aware that PWR_EN can toggle an infinite # of times in 5 seconds after going high the 1st time and all toggles will be ignored until the 5 second timer expires?After the 5s ends, the next low edge causes the power-down sequence. This timer runs regardless of whether or not the input voltage has recently powered-on. 

    The same thing goes for when PWR_EN toggles low: PWR_EN can toggle many time until the 1s delay expires before the next low-to-high edge is recognized and the power-on sequence occurs.

    Trying to run tests quickly on the EVM can lead to assumptions that the device is not working, but that is only because there are a lot of delays in the part. Edges are captured while the delay is running, but nothing will occur until the delay expires. Trust me, I have been there before and made many of these assumptions myself.

    I hope this resolves the question related to PWR_EN.

    However, I still firmly believe the spike on DCDC3 is related to the processor and improper sequencing. It is possible the PWR_EN issues were causing this improper sequencing, but I cannot say for sure.

    Any rail rising unexpectedly on the PMIC is usually traced back to a leakage path through the processor and is not the PMIC spontaneously changing voltages.

  • Hi Brian,

    Thanks for clarifications regarding PWR_EN.
    Basically without a battery this PMIC cannot be used to provide power OFF sequence in all cases. Specifically, in the case when the user powers ON the system and inadvertently removes the power from the system in less than 5 seconds from the power ON the PMIC will not provide correct power OFF sequence even with enough caps to keep the Vin longer (say 120ms) after the PWR_EN goes low.... (power plug removed...)

    Regarding the spike on DCDC3 (and DCDC1).
    the scopes were done with the CPU rails isolated from the PMIC rails (please see sch.... there are 0Ohms resistors on all the PMIC rail so I could test the PMIC with resistive loads only before actually connecting the CPU...). Also I'm not using the SYS out rail (pin 7 and 8) to feed the DCDCx and LDO's; please have a look at the sch. the DCDCx and LDO's are power by the same VIN provided for the PMIC at AC input (pin 10). Maybe that is the cause of the spike.... Also I have
    I could not replicate the spikes using the available EVM (btw I have the TPS65217BEVM whereas you used the TPS65217C for your tests....).
    I will try modifying the EVM to replicate my conditions...(not using the SYS rail) and retest..... (I suspect that could be the difference...)
  • Hello Brian, you mentioned falling edge of PWR_EN , however the datasheet says it is level sensitive. So is the power down sequence really based on edge or level ?
  • AA,

    The PWR_EN pin is "level-sensitive" in the sense that the pin can toggle during a delay timer (1 s or 5 s) and the PMIC will recall that the toggle on this pin has already occurred when the timer has expired. The next State in the state machine will be entered as long as the pin is held in the new state.

    If the pin returns to its previous state, a new edge will be required to transition to a new state in the state machine.

  • Catalin,

    Just checking in to see if your issue related to the TPS65217 has been resolved since we last spoke before the holidays.
  • Hi Brian,

    Thanks for checking in... I think I have a pretty good understanding of what is going on with this PMIC especially with his limitations..... I'm also pretty much OK with all the details....(I would have liked more details in documentations to specifically point to the fact that this PMIC IT IS NOT DESIGNED TO WORK IN A SYSTEM WITHOUT THE BATTERY)

    Unfortunately, as I mentioned in previous posting this PMIC requires the battery presence in order to provide the Power-off sequence in all situations, which is not possible in our case....I will evaluate the impact of the wrong power-off sequence in the special case I mentioned in previous posting. I will definitely need the TI FAE input regarding the impact of the wrong power-off sequence on Sitara AM335x CPU . Please see the attachment above (the last post...)

    We may end up re-spinning the board to replace this PMIC with a different solution for powering-up the onboard AM335x CPU suitable to our requirements.

    best regards,
    Catalin
  • Catalin,

    We have observed situations like this before where there is no battery in the system and the input power supply can accidentally be removed/re-applied multiple times in a short period of time.

    These scenarios have all been resolved with an inconvenient but highly effective external circuit placed in front of the TPS65217 AC pin.

    In the Application Note (link below) that addresses a different but similar topic (known as VIN brown-out), this circuit is shown in "Figure 10. Solution Circuit Number 3" on page 10.

    Another option would be to add a lot of bulk capacitance at the AC pin, but this will slow down the ramp rate which could cause a different problem: the datasheet recommends a rise time of <50ms on the AC pin.

  • Catalin,
    The TPS65910 is generally used in complex systems that do not require a battery charger.
    The TPS650250 is commonly used in simpler systems with a fixed clock speed (basically ON/OFF only - no special sleep state features)

    These PMICs are all compared in the AM335x Wiki page: processors.wiki.ti.com/.../Device:AM335x:Device_Evaluation