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TLE2021 non-zero output

Other Parts Discussed in Thread: INA145

I have a customer using the 2021 in place of an old LM108A. Circuit has a gain of 30. The 2021 in circuit is outputting 30mv when the inputs are zero during a test. The 1mv is on the non-inverting input. The rails are at +/-13V.  Measurement inputs are on the low side of a servo driving H bridge.  They used a 0.15ohm to ground for current measurement. 3K input R and 102K feedback, with no compensation on the 2021.  He wants to know why the 2021 has a 1mV Voffset on pin 3? He can use a 5k compensation on pin 1 to –Vcc and pull the pin 6 output down, but doesn't think it should be needed.  Most of the time the op amp should be sitting at zero as it just moves a motor occasionally.

My first thought was that the way they were measuing the devices was causing the issue, but they assured me that wasn't the case.  I also asked if something downstream was putting voltage back on the op amp.   They told me Pin 6 output goes to a mux thru 110K then A/D for use to  control the torque used on the servo.  The inputs are seeing the FETs switch at 488Hz. The test engages the servo and provides a 20ohm and 1ohm load. The output is set to zero.  Measurements for the current are taken across the 1ohm load and show 95uV. Measurement on Pin 6 output shows 34mV.

They use this part in 3 locations that measure voltage and three that measure current, and they all show the same issue.  They have bread boarded the part, and it appears to work well. Shorting the inputs gives rail voltage out, although I would expect a zero output.  When they lift pin 3 lead on the bread board the  output goes to 30mv and 1mv appears on pin 3. When they ground the .15ohm input on pin 3 the part seems to work fine.  When they ground pin 1 thru .15ohms and lift open pin 3 to simulate a zero command they get 2mV on pin 3 and 60mV output due to my gain of 30.

Is there some leakage?  Anyone know what could be causing this.

Thanks

 

 

  • Eric,

    There is a lot of opportunity for misinterpretation and confusion here. I suggest that we get a schematic.

    Regards, Bruce.

  • Sorry,

    Forgot the attachment.  It is a little tough to read. 

    Believe me, I was very confused about this one.

    Thanks

    5383.img-506132322-0001.pdf

  • Eric;

    You cannot open either input pin of an op amp in a diff amp configuration and expect it to work -- if I understand what they are doing. Note that the TLE2021C offset voltage spec is 1mV max, suspiciously close to what they are seeing,

    Rather than build their own diff amp, they should use something like an INA145. The LM108A is obsolete and, I think, out of production.

    Regards, Neil P. Albaugh   ex-Burr-Brown

  • Eric,

    If they are seeing 1mV on the non-inverting input with no current flowing in their bridge, something seems awry. It seems suspicious that the input bias current times 102k could make approximately 1mV.  Could it be that the 3k resistor on the non-inverting input is open or disconnected?

    Regards, Bruce.

  • It seems my customer is now as confused as I am, but thanks for the responses.  It looks like the 3k resistor is in place.

    Huh?

    I am using the 2021BC where input offset voltage is listed as MAX 100uV at ambient with typical of 40uV. That is only 0.1mV worst case. Not 1mV.

    Also checked the input resistors and all is OK. I have an old 108A part and substituted it and passed test handily. New National LF411A part also works very well.

    Even worked over temp range when not rated for that.

    The only way the input bias current would flow thru the 102K is if, as you noted, the inverted input was open. That is not the case, the 3K is there. Worst case input bias 70nA would give me 7.14mV and the gain of 33 would give me 235mV which would way fail the .030 max value. I am not seeing this type of output. The Op amp is only giving me ~34mV when the test fails.

    The INA145 does not show as available in a DIP package and I have to match the existing design. No PWB change.

     

    Any other ideas?

    If you have any other thoughs, or if you can think of a part in a DIP package, just let me know. 

    Thanks

  • Have a look at the output with a scope-- is it oscillating?

  • I agree with Neil's suggestion regarding oscillations.

    I don't recall seeing comments on trying more than one part. You must also consider the possibility of damaged or defective parts. You may want to try a simple test circuit for input bias current to see if it is out of spec.

    Regards, Bruce