This thread has been locked.

If you have a related question, please click the "Ask a related question" button in the top right corner. The newly created question will be automatically linked to this question.

LMK03000: Multi-stage LMK03033 design shows worse clock synchronization than single chip

Part Number: LMK03000
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: LMK03033, , LMK01000

Hello,

We are using 5 LMK03033 to fan out a clock to 16 ADC chips and 4 FPGAs. The architecture is like this:

source > LMK #1 > LMK #2 > ADC (4x) + FPGA

                               > LMK #3 > ADC (4x) + FPGA

                               > LMK #4 > ADC (4x) + FPGA

                               > LMK #5 > ADC (4x) + FPGA

The source is 50 MHz, LMK#1 generates 125 MHz (LVDS)  for LMK2-5, LMK2-5 generate 250 MHz (LVPECL) for the ADCs and 125 MHz  (LVDS) for the FPGA. The LMKs indicate they are locked (LD pin high with the register programmed for high = locked). A pulse on SYNC* is applied after programming the LMK registers. LMK #1 is programmed first, then (currently after a 6s wait) LMK #2-5 simultaneously. In this application, we measure the time of arrival of digitized ADC pulses to sub-sample precision by interpolation of the digitized pulse. Pulses created at the same time and digitized with different channels should have a time of arrival difference of zero +/- measurement precision X. For example, a split pulser signal fed into ADC#1 and ADC #2 (both clocked by LMK#2) shows X = ~50ps.

However, X = ~1200ps for 2 channels clocked by different LMKs (e.g. ADC #1 clocked by LMK#2 and ADC #5 clocked by LMK #3). All other things being equal, we attribute this to a somehow worse clock synchronization across the multiple LMK chips than within a single chip. So we have the following questions:

1) probing with an oscilloscope, we see (by eye) the outputs of LMK #2-5 to be in phase and of the same frequency (across all chips). However,  the input and the output each are drifting against each other. Is that normal? "PLL" to me means the output is phase locked to the input, and both should be the same frequency or am I misunderstanding this?

2) A previous design used LMK010xx chips in stage 2 (LMK #2-5) instead of LMK03033, and X is only a little worse for 2 channels clocked by different LMKs. This follows the recommendation in the LMK03000 datasheet (8.9 MORE THAN EIGHT OUTPUTS ...). The LMK03033 was chosen here to have more flexibility in the final clock frequencies. Is the LMK03033 not suited for such a 2-stage architecture, only the LMK010xx?

3) The LMK03033 and LMK010xx being such similar devices, and if 2) is true, I am wondering if the LMK03033 can be programmed to act just like a LMK010xx? For example bypass the VCO stage and send the clock input directly to the output divider/delay stage; perhaps with register settings not listed in the data sheet? (I note some bits in e.g. register 9 are set differently for the two devices, but not explained)

Note: We are not overly concerned here with identical phase alignment of all the outputs (per the sync functionality). The phase can be different for different clock outputs, as long as that difference is _fixed_. A fixed phase offset will show up as a fixed offset from zero in the time measurement and can be calibrated out. Varying phase shifts worsen the precision X.

  • Wolfgang,

    I have the following responses:

    1. Can you provide the oscilloscope capture of this? What is the frequency that you are seeing on these outputs, if not 125 MHz? Is the input to these (the output of LMK #1) locked at 125 MHz, or is this also drifting? Do you have a TICS profile (or list of register values) that you can send me, so that I can test this on an EVM?
    2. I would advise using the LMK010xx for stage two instead of the LMK03033 - while there is more flexibility in the clock frequencies, if the outputs are not bypassed, random phase error can be introduced - see below from Phase Synchronization with Multiple Devices and Frequencies:

      Additionally, there is a table for delay relative to the bypass mode in the LMK03000 Family datasheet:
    3. Unfortunately, while there is a configuration for bypassing the output dividers, I do not believe we can bypass the VCO (reference input straight to output dividers) - it may be simplest to output 250 MHz from LMK #1, and then use LMK010XX devices for LMK #2-5. See below for syncing multiple LMK devices in parallel, and be sure to use even length traces:

    Thanks,

    Kadeem

  • Hi Kadeem,

    Thank you for the quick response.

    1) Please see below for oscilloscope snapshots. (Sorry for the poor quality). The input frequency is 125 MHz and this is from LMK#1, which is locked. The left picture shows the outputs of LMK #2 and #3, 125 MHz; they are in sync and stable. The right picture shows input and output of LMK#3; it is not totally random but you can see the edges do not align over time. These are many acquisitions overlayed; if I do a single acquisition at a time the edges are "often" aligned but once in a while the rising/falling are swapped or the phase shifted by some other amount and then continues like that for the next few acquisitions..

    The registers for LMK2-5 are programmed as follows (in this order):

    32'h80070400  //reset
    32'h00070400
    32'h00060401
    32'h00060402
    32'h00060403
    32'h00070204
    32'h00070205
    32'h00070206
    32'h00070207
    32'h10000908
    32'hA0022A09
    32'h0082800B
    32'h029F400D
    32'h0830040E
    32'h0800200F

    followed by a SYNC* pulse

      

    I'm ok with the behavior in the left picture, I'm just surprised and wondering how multiple outputs can align if the inputs don't match the outputs.

    3) Since we built quite a number of these boards already, reprogramming the LMK03033 would be much preferred to replacing it. The "I do not believe we can bypass the VCO" seems to leave a small chance open that it might be possible -- can make sure either way?

    Thanks for your help,

    Wolfgang

  • Wolfgang,

    I have the following responses:

    1. This is definitely unusual. I will load this configuration onto an EVM Monday and see if I can replicate the behavior. You have LD configured as an output - do you see low-high transitions on the LD pin at all?
    2. N/A
    3. I have checked - there is not any way for us to bypass the VCO.

    Thanks,

    Kadeem

  • Hi Kadeem,

    1) Yes, I see a low-to high transition after programming, then it stays high. Let me know if you need anything else for your tests.

    2+3)  resolved (in the sense of no open questions), thanks

    Wolfgang

  • Wolfgang,

    So far, I am not seeing your issue. Unfortunately, I only have board that I can test this on at the moment - I have ordered a few more, but it will be as much as a week before I will receive them to continue testing.

    I would like to clarify: Is the input in the right figure red, with the output blue? Is it that the PLL is locked (with the LMK 2/3/etc. outputs in phase with each other) while the input is shifting in phase?

    Thanks,

    Kadeem

  • Hi Kadeem,

    Correct, input is red, output blue. The PLL is locked per the LD pin but input and output are not the same.

    I checked the older design with the LMK010xx in the 2nd stage now also. There input and outputs are in phase, both for the first stage LMK03033 and the second stage LMK010xx, and all LMK010xx outputs are in phase as well.

  • Wolfgang,

    Unfortunately, it may be best to use the LMK010xx for the second stage - I do not believe that we have ever investigated if the LMK03033 is suitable for this type of configuration, likely because we offer the instructions for doing it with the LMK010xx.

    I advise using the LMK010xx for now, but I can send an update once the additional LMK03033 boards arrive for me to test the series combination further.

    Thanks,

    Kadeem

  • Hi Kadeem,

    Quick status update: we are reworking a board to replace the 2nd stage LMK03033 with a LMK01000.  That will take a few more days.

    I checked on another board where we have 2 LMK03033 in series, and they behave ok -- timing measurements are fine and the input and output clocks are in phase for both. That design is almost identical to the first; only the source clock is 125 MHz  and a few more outputs are used. Any insight on why input and output would not be in phase yet LD is high would be appreciated. We use the recommended external loop filter values from the clock design tool (82pF, 820 Ohm, 4.7nF) -- does it make sense to vary those?

    Thanks,

    Wolfgang

  • Wolfgang,

    It could be beneficial to vary the external loop filters if you are able to - while they may be recommended from the tool it could benefit this application to tweak them slightly if it results in the issue disappearing.

    To be clear - the only difference between the properly and improperly functioning setups is using 125 MHz instead of 50 MHz for the input to LMK #1?
    Thanks,

    Kadeem

  • Hi Kadeem,

    ok, I can explore the loop filter values, thanks.

    The improperly functioning setup is like this:

    50 MHz > LMK #1 > 125 MHz >  LMK #2-5 > 125 MHz to FPGA and 250 MHz to ADCs

    The properly functioning setup is

    125 MHz > LMK #1a > 125 MHz > LMK #2a > 125 MHz to FPGA and 250 MHz to ADCs

    The loop filter passives differ for LMK #1 and LMK #1a (per tool). They are the same for LMK2-5 and LMK2a. The schematic is identical except for those passives' values, but of course they are on different PCBs and the layout is slightly different. For example one of the loop filter capacitors is on the back side of the PCB for LMK#1, while all filter passives are on the same side for LMK #1a.

    Thanks,

    Wolfgang

  • Wolfgang,

    I should have boards in early next week - hoping that I can continue to investigate this further once I have more than one LMK03033 board.

    For now, will either the 125 MHz input with all LMK03033 parts or the LMK03033 + LMK01000 setups work for your application?
    Thanks,

    Kadeem

  • Hi Kadeem,

    So we replaced the 2nd stage LMK03033s with LMK01000 and that looks good: inputs and outputs are in phase and the timing for the ADC is about the same for ADCs clocked by the same LMK01000 or different LMK01000s (about 120 ps each case)

    The 125 MHz input with all LMK03033s is a different board. There it works ok, LMKs are locked, inputs/outputs in phase, timing is good. But on the problem board, even if I change the first LMK's input to 125 MHz and reconfigure the LMK accordingly, it does not work ok -- LMKs are locked but inputs/outputs are not in phase, timing is not good.

    I will check the "resolved" box now because I can live with changing the 2nd stage LMKs to model 01000 and that solves the multi-stage problem. (I might come back with more questions on the issue of LMKs are locked but inputs/outputs are not in phase.)

    Thanks for your help,

    Wolfgang