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UCC28780: 5V, 10A design using UCC28780

Part Number: UCC28780
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: , TIDA-010047, CSD18510Q5B, CSD17570Q5B, CSD16570Q5B, UCC24612, ATL431, TL431

Hi,

Is it possible to achieve 92% efficiency using UCC28780 for Input line voltage 100VACrms to 130VACRMS and output 5V, 10Amps (50W)?

I see the available calculator and SIMetrix simulation model. I used the calculator but i am not getting the correct simulation results after feeding the calculated values from calculator in available SIMetrix model. Is it possible for you to share the simulation file for above requirement assuming 100KHz-150KHz switching frequency?

Thanks

Ankit Jain

  • Hello Ankit, 

    Thank you for your interest in the UCC28780 active-clamp flyback controller. 

    Data in the User Guides for the GaN EVM and the Si-based EVM show that > 92% average efficiency is achieved for a 45-W design operating at 115Vrms, however the output voltage is at 20V.  It will be more difficult to achieve 92% for a low-voltage, higher-current output such as your requirements. The controller by itself cannot deliver any specific efficiency, but its operation helps facilitate lower losses with the proper selection of active and passive components. 

    There are two simulation models, one for GaN-based design and one for Si-MOSFET design. These are Simplis models and will not work in SIMetrix.  
    We are not in a position to generate a custom model to your specifications.  
    I recommend to go through the UCC28780 Excel Design Calculator tool (https://www.ti.com/lit/zip/sluc664 ) from beginning to end and make sure that each of the user entries conform to your choices and selections. Several parameters depend on other parameters, so if you made a first pass, then made some changes and forgot to go back and adjust any parameters that were dependent on the changed values, that may result in improper behavior.  One example is the RDM resistor, whose value depends on 3 other resistors, a turns-ratio, and the magnetizing inductance.  Changing any one of those parameters requires recalculating Rrdm. 

    Regards,
    Ulrich

  • Hi Ulrich,

    Thanks for your reply.

    I am looking 92% efficiency at 115Vrms and at Full load which is not average efficiency. I see 94.06% efficiency at 115Vrms and Full load in UCC28780EVM-021. I understand we have to select external component by carefully examining, like low Rds of SR Mosfet for high output current and choosing components satisfying datasheet recommendation formulas, which in essence inbuilt in calculator.

    I am expecting to get TI expert opinion if 92% is possible to achieve for 5V, 10A output and at 115Vrms, provided optimum components are selected.

    We have SIMetrix/SIMPLIS License and able to run SI based 20V,45W simulation example available on TI website.

    I tried using xls calculator, but the simulation is not working from the extracted values from calculator.

    I tried to use same SI, 45W simulation example for 5V,10A design by changing Auxiliary turns (Np =27, NS=5, NA =12), reducing current sense resistor to 120mohm and tuned feedback resistors to (135K, 150K) to assess preliminary efficiency for full load. As Equivalent electrical transformer is used in simulation design so there will not be saturation issue for 10Amps. The simulation was working and then I varied RDM resistor from 95.3K to 150K referring UCC28780EVM-021 (45W) and TIDA-010047 reference schematic keeping other components of same value. But I did not see any significant difference in results.

    Can you please suggest the RDM value for the mentioned design parameters? Also, I see huge drop in secondary diode since SR IC is not present in 45W simulation example so can you suggest some SR that I can import in SIMetrix/SIMPLIs tool.

    Apart from above can you please provide opinion if 92% efficiency can be achieved in reference to above stated scenario.

    Regards,

    Ankit Jain

  • Hello Ankit, 

    I am a little confused by the TIDA-010047 USB-PD design brought into the picture.  It's parameters are not appropriate for a single-output 50W design.

    To be clear, in my opinion, I believe it is possible to exceed 92% efficiency with an ACF circuit (with UCC28780) at full load of 5V, 10A at input voltage of 115Vrms.  This applies to a single, fixed output voltage, not as a subset of a variable-output USB-PD type design. 

    All of my comments and recommendations are based on that assumption of 100~130Vrms input (not 90Vrms, 85Vrms?) and fixed 5V output, 10A maximum.
    Please confirm this assumption. 

    Assuming so, the UCC28780EVM-021 is the proper circuit arrangement example to follow.  That transformer's turns ratio is appropriate for fixed 20V output.  Simple iteration of the ratios reported in the User Guide result in actual turns of Np=21 : Ns=4 : Na = 3 : Nsa = 2.  The Nsa winding is a secondary-side auxiliary bias for the SR controller.  This results in a reflected voltage of 20V/4T *21T = 105V.  

    For a 5V output, you'll need about a turns ratio of 21:1 to get the same reflected voltage.  The existing core size is a low-profile RM8/ILP, and probably can be "stretched" to handle 50W (11% power throughput increase) without increasing the primary turns.  But if the losses go up too much, you may have to resort to a normal-sized RM8 core to fit more primary turns and thicker wire.  (Or, a different core shape of suitable Ae and Ve).

    For 5V output reflected to the primary-AUX, you'll need ~15V, or 3:1, and for an SR bias, you'll need about 10V or 2:1.
    This results in a 21 : 1 : 3 : 2 turns-ratio for Np : Ns : Na : Nsa.  The single-turn secondary will likely consist of multi-filar wire.  Primary and secondary windings should definitely be Litz wire.  I'm not sure that a 1-turn foil winding would be practicable.  The 2 Aux windings can be solid wire, but multi-stranded for better coupling. 

    Because of the turn-ratio change and higher current, your secondary resonance caps and output cap need to increase in value.  The primary MOSFETs might stay the same, or you may choose a slightly larger bottom FET due to the higher current.  The top Fet can be smaller (higher Rds(on) since the clamp current is lower, so it helps reduce total switched node capacitance.  400-V Fets can be used.

    Please use the Excel tool to work through the choices and derive the appropriate resistances for the controller. 

    For your SR simulation, I suggest to download the UCC24612-2 SR controller model ( https://www.ti.com/lit/zip/slum597 ).  At 130Vrms max input, the secondary reflected voltage is about 9V, so a 30 or 40-V MOSFET can be used with plenty of margin available for leakage inductance spikes. 
    By ratio of current squared, the 16mR FET for 20V turns into 16 *(2.25/10)^2 = 0.81mR to keep the same conduction loss.  
    CSD18510Q5B ( https://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/csd18510q5b ) is a 40-V, 0.96mR FET from TI. 
    CSD17570Q5B ( https://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/csd17570q5b ) is a 30-V, 0.92mR FET from TI.
    CSD16570Q5B ( https://www.ti.com/lit/gpn/csd16570q5b ) is a 25-V, 0.82mR FET, but may not have enough voltage margin. 
    If necessary, two smaller FETs (higher -R) may need to be paralleled to reduce R further. 

    Alternatively, the "SBD" part in the SIMPLIS model (Schottky Barrier Diode) may be redefined to have ~1.2mR forward resistance (to partially account for Rds(on) rise with temperature) and 0.1mV forward voltage just to have a number in the parameter box. Its output capacitance should be increased to match that of the MOSFET intended to be used, because this capacitance is included in the total switched-node capacitance.  

    The input EMI filter and rectifier and bulk cap may need to be modified to accommodate the higher power.  
    Several design iterations will be necessary to optimize everything.

    Regards,

    Ulrich

  • UCC28780 Excel Design Calculator (5V) SLUC664C.xlsx

    Hi Ulrich,

    I have tried as you suggested Np =21, Ns = 1, NA = 3 in the calculator. I tuned the switching frequency to 140KHz to get magnetizing inductance to 110mH as in the eval kit. But if you see calculation sheet tab in attached excel calculator, Tool is unable to provide value in Row 89 and 90.

    Pl advice.

    I also tried different combination using calculator like Np =10, NS = 1, Na = 4, Lm = 80uH (FSW=150KHz), RDM = 214K, Rtz = 232K  so all other parameters i set using calculator but simulation is providing 0V. I am not sure about the issue. Can u pls help me to fix the issue.

    Thanks

    Regards,

    Ankit Jain

  • Hello Ankit, 

    I looked through the calculator and found a limitation in an equation which involves an arccosine term.  Arc cos is undefined if the argument (acos(arg)) is >1.

    With your low input voltage, this situation became true and the acos term became undefined.  While assessing that issue, I found some additional problems where the rms line voltage should have been converted to the peak value by multiplying by square-root of 2.  The x1.4142 term is missing in several places. 

    At high line, the errors are small so it went unnoticed.  At low voltage, such as130Vac as the maximum input voltage, there errors are larger and led to the undefined acos() result.  TI will revise the calculator tool to eliminate these problems.  

    Meanwhile, I'll reply again in a short time with recommended RDM and RTZ values. Please use the 21:1:3 ratio for the transformer. 

    Regards,
    Ulrich

  • Hello Ankit, 

    After making corrections to a local copy of the calculator file you provided, it recommends RDM = 85.5kR and RTZ = 437.7kR.

    The closest standard 1% values are 86.6kR and 432kR, respectively. 

    We're working to release an upgraded tool as soon as we can.

    Regards,
    Ulrich

  • Hello Ulrich,

    I goy busy in some other priority work so could not rerun it. I am back again on this design.

    There are couple of questions.

    1) When can you share the updated excel tool.

    2) I run simulation with 10:1:4 (NP:NS:NA), Lm = 80uH, RDM = 198K, RTZ = 199K, RBUR1= 216K, RBUR2 = 50K, RVS1 = 137K, RVS2 = 31K for the input setting of VINmax = 185VDC, VInmin = 140VDC, VINBUR = 180VDC, VOUT = 5V, POUT = 50W, FSw_Min = 145KHz as per excel tool.

    I have used SR IC UCC24612 to improve efficiency.

    I am getting 5.06V at Full load & 50% output load while input voltage is set at 145Vdc. But as i am reducing the load  to~16W, I am seeing 0V output in simulation. I am not sure what exactly is the issue. I tried other combinations as per excel but i am seeing the same issue with all the cases.

    Please note i have kept the RCo1 = 99uF, RCo2 = 680uF, Rdamp = 680m, Ldamp = 680n, Lo = 1u same as in reference simulation design.

    Can you please help to find the issue for lower load? Meanwhile, I will try to run the design with 21:1:3 ratio and RDM = 85.5kR and RTZ = 437.7kR.

    Thanks

    Ankit Jain

  • Hello Ankit,

    I cannot deduce what is causing the simulation output to fall to 0V from the information provided.  16W is about 30% of 50W, so the operation should be somewhere in the lower ABM count; say 2, 3, or 4 pulses per burst, I'm guessing.

    0V on the output means switching has stopped and we need to determine the reason for switching to stop in this line and load condition. It could be any of the various faults has happened that results in a shutdown. Check if VDD of the UCC28780 has fallen below the UVLO threshold.  Check if Vout has risen to the OVP threshold, or if peak primary currents exceed the OCP threshold. 

    I don't know what is going on in the simulation, but I suggest to set the load level to a point where regulation still works (like 17W?) and examine the waveforms of every signal that has a protection threshold to see how close it is getting to possibly triggering that protection.  Then carefully reduce the load in small increments while monitoring the likeliest signals with respect to their protection thresholds to see which one may be getting even closer. 
    Eventually, you will reach the point where the shutdown occurs and you can identify which signal caused it.  Then figure out why that signal was moving toward the protection level and whether it is expected behavior or unexpected behavior. Then you can figure out what to do about it.
    The main focus is to isolate what exactly is causing the shutdown by using the process of elimination.

    I'm not sure when the revised calculation tool can be released.  I'll check on its status. 

    Regards,
    Ulrich    

  • Hi Ulrich,

    When i am reducing the power to 50% by reducing the load to 1ohm, i see the normal operation and output voltage is 5.06V. When I reduced the power further by increasing the load resistance to 1.1 ohm, the output voltage increased to 5.6V. The observed frequency is 237KHz and Duty cycle 20%. I increased the load further to 1.2 ohm so output increased to 6V and when i went with1.3 ohm load value the output was 0V.

    It looks loop is becoming unstable. I did not observe burst mode operation. 

    Can you please share your email ID so i can share the SIMetrix file and probably you can help in fixing the issue.

    Regards,

    Ankit Jain

  • Hello Ankit,

    Thank you for the additional information.  I am certain the output is shutting down because of over-voltage protection as Vout rises above 6V. 

    From the symptoms you describe (regulating at loads > 50%, and Vout rising as load gets lighter than that) I believe that the feedback loop is running into some sort of clamped operation. More specifically, I think the shunt regulator is saturating at its lowest voltage and cannot drop lower so it is unable to increase the current into the opto-coupler. Higher FB current would allow the controller to change modes from AAM to ABM and further to accommodate lighter loads.  If the FB current cannot increase, the controller becomes "stuck" at that operating point, even if the output load is reducing.  Therefore Vout has no alternative but to increase.  Fortunately the OVP function detects the OV and shuts down the operation.

    As load gets lighter, Vout rises incrementally and the shunt regulator (such as ATL431) drives feedback current through the opto-diode by lowering its cathode voltage.  The opto-diode current is derived by the voltage established across "Rbias1" from Vout to the anode of the opto-diode.  Since the cathode of the diode is connected to the cathode of the shunt, as the shunt voltage drops, so follows the diode voltage drop, which increases the V-drop across Rbias1.

    If the shunt voltage "bottoms out" (cannot decrease further) then the current through Rbias1 cannot increase further, hence the feedback loop becomes stuck at that operating point.  This situation may happen if you take a reference design which had a 20-V output and modified it to produce a 5-V output, but forget to adjust the values of Rbias1 and Rbias2 appropriately for the 5-V level.  Depending on how it is connected, Rbias2 may or may not need to change value.  But in any case, Rbias1 does need to be reduced when changing from 20V to 5V output.

    With 20V output, the shunt's cathode voltage can range near 20V down to 2V, so Rbias1 would have a relatively high value.  With a 5V output, the shunt's cathode voltage can only range from 5V down to 2V (from 6V actually, accounting for the OV), so Rbias1 must have a relatively low value to generate the same range of feedback control current.  Other factors in the simulation can also be involved with the limiting current, such as how the opto-diode drop is modeled and what value of CTR is used at the operating point. 

    I think this shutdown issue will go away if you use about 1K for Rbias1.  The you should be able to simulate to "no-load" conditions.  

    Regards,
    Ulrich

  • Hi Ulrich,

    I tried with Rbias1 = 1K resistor. I see output voltage momentary (for 1-2 ms) tries to stable at 5V with ~200mV ripple and then goes back to zero. It is urgent to fix the design, It will be great help if you provide technical team support so i can share the design calculator ( i tuned) and simulation file. Hopefully you will have my email ID that can be seen from my profile.

    Thanks

    Ankit Jain

  • Hello Ankit,

    I clicked on your profile, but there is no explicit email address listed there.  I clicked on "Email subscribe to User" and nothing seemed to have happened on my end.  (I haven't tried this before, so I don't know what to expect.)  Please check to see if an email or notice from me appeared at your end. 

    In any case, it is pretty obvious that something is wrong in the simulation file that is preventing normal simulation, and I won't be able to debug what it is based on limited descriptions in text.  I can support better if you can provide the simulation file that you're having trouble with, either through email or attached to this thread.

    Regards,
    Ulrich   

  • Hi Ulrich,

    Can you please share your email ID. I will send you email with simulation file and excel tool attached through my office ID right now.

    Thanks

    Regards,

    Ankit Jain

  • Hi Ankit,  

    Having received and run your simulation file (as modified from the original UCC28780 SIMPLIS file), I've found two main issues: that the output cap still had 20V as its initial condition, and the VS-pin resistor-divider set the VS signal too close to the over-voltage threshold of 4.5V (typ).  
    Changing Cout IC=5V eliminated the long dead times between short bursts while the voltage loop was recovering from saturation.
    Reducing Rvs2 value by ~10% raises the OVP threshold so switching does not stop while the loop settles. 

    I also reviewed the Excel Calculator Tool that you provided and made some changes that I thought would better fit your application.  
    In particular, your response requirement of 0.2V deviation for 50% load step points to a large Cout.  From your email:
    "As load change requirement is from 100% to 50% (Not 0% to 100%), so my plan for C02 is to use ... 150uf x 5  (Total = 750uF, Effective ESR = ~3 mohm)." 
    I think 750uF may not be enough capacitance to support a 0.2V maximum deviation in Vout. 

    The datasheet equation (38) is valid for most usual conditions.  The Excel tool equation accounts for ESR drop as well, but is specifically targeted for 100% load steps and will overstate Cout value for your application.  Furthermore, your comment of "...100% to 50%..." load change indicates that a step-down direction is more important that a step-up load change.  I'd like for your to verify what is more important, what is equally important, and what is less important to accommodate for your application.  These will help inform the strategy for your design.   

    In most TL431 + optocoupler feedback loops, the optocoupler response is the "bottleneck" in the loop response, and generally is slower when turning off.  When the system goes from light load to heavy load, the TL431 cuts off the opto-diode current, but the output transistor still conducts as the base electrons recombine with holes during the storage time and eventually the collector current drops to zero.  This means that Cout is holding up Vout until the FB current gets low enough for the controller to command enough output current to stop and reverse the droop in Vout.  
    Conversely, when the system goes from heavy load to light load, there is little FB current and the TL431 acts to rapidly increase the opto-coupler current. Since there is no storage time to wait for, this direction is much faster than the other and the control can cut off power to the output sooner.  So Vout overshoot is usually lower than Vout undershoot for equal-magnitude but opposite-polarity load steps.  

    Assuming (and this assumption must be verified or refuted) that going from 10A to 5A load is the more important transient direction, the 5A change in current through the ESR accounts for ~15mV of the 200mV allowable transient, leaving 185mV for Cout to absorb while the feedback loop cuts back on power transfer.  In my experience, the typical loop response time is about 100us in the un-load direction, so Cout should be > 5A*100us/.185V = 2700uF.  
    Part of this assumption is that the un-load step is immediate, not gradual.  

    Another part of the assumption is that the other way, 50% load to 100% load, is less important; either more than 0.2V droop is allowable, or the di/dt of the 5-A step is slow enough to avoid a deep droop.  If this is not the case, then Cout must be reevaluated and may be higher than 2700uF.  
    Please check the di/dt of your load changes, up and down, to verify or modify the Cout calculations to meet your 0.2V transient spec, or re-evaluate the 0.2V target. 

    Another item from your email: "Now, for Feedback TL431, I will be referring the excel sheet but I see larger Cdiif and Cint capacitor value in comparison to TIDA-010047 (works for 5V design as well) and UCC28780-021 eval kit schematic, I don’t know the reason but if you have any thoughts, please advise." 

    In both of these designs, the output currents are lower, the output voltages are higher, and they both use ATL431 to help minimize no-load standby input power.  With UCC28780, Cdiff is used to bypass ripple voltage around Rbias1 which is used for ABM control.  For your design, Cdiff is much higher because Rbias1 is much lower because TL431 needs higher bias current than ATL431 and your Vout is lower.      
    Cint is higher because Rvo1 is lower when using the TL431, to minimize TL431 Iref bias current influence on Vout setting. 

    Cdiff and Cint will usually be different from one design to another, but the main reason their values are so much higher in your design compared to the TIDA and EVM designs is that the resistor values they interact with are much lower due to the higher TL431 currents involved with regulation. 
    Another assumption to test is that no-load standby power is not an important consideration to your design. 
    If it actually is important, maybe consider using the ATL431 regulator instead. 

    Regards,
    Ulrich