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BQ24133: Charger goes into fault when power to the load is applied.

Part Number: BQ24133
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: CSD87312Q3E

Greetings!  We are experiencing a fault condition on this charger that we are hoping you can help us resolve.  

Our setup:  we are using the BQ24133 charger chip with a 2 cell Lipo battery with capacity of either 6 Ah or 10 Ah.  It has a built in 10 kOhm thermister.  We laid out our schematic exactly as the example circuits in the datasheet.  We used all the example circuit values.  So our charge chip values should be: VIset= 403 mV (should result in 1.01 A charge current limit), VACSet = 0.82V to 1V (should result in 2.5 A input current limit).  Our power supply is a 12 V AC adapter.  We do have the STAT pin tied to one of our system microcontrollers as well as to the stat LED.

Our problem:  we will have the 12 V adapter and the battery plugged in and charging (stat LED is solid red), then when we turn on the power to the load, the charger goes into fault (stat LED blinks).   If we unplug the 12 V adapter and plug it back in, it usually clears the fault (sometimes it takes more than one unplug/plug attempt to clear the fault).   The problem is almost exactly the behavior as defined in section 9.3.19 of the datasheet.

With our system fully booted, we are pulling minimum 2 A and up to 30 A into our load.

Things we’ve tried:

1. We verified all the conditions of section 9.3.9 in the datasheet for enabling the charging.  They are all within the required limits before and after switching.  We did not verify them during switching, but if they are stable after switching we feel like that should be sufficient to enable charge again.

2. Increasing the current limit on ACSet by replacing R4 (on the TI datasheet, nominal value 100K) with a new resistor valued 10.4K, leaving everything else as-is, so the new current limit should be 6.25 A. This didn’t solve our problem. 

3. Thinking about section 9.3.19, we measured the voltage across both ACFET and BATFET.  The waveforms that were obtained upon powering up the system are shown in the image below.  

CH1 (yellow) is VBAT.  CH2 (blue) is the 12 V adapter.  Purple is the MATH channel doing a difference between them. 

With such a large voltage sag, we suspected inrush current trying to charge capacitors.  Going off the last line in section 9.3.10, we added capacitance between the Source and Gate of Q1, Q2, and Q3 to try to slow the inrush current, but after adding 114uF of capacitance, we were unable to prevent the fault.  Then we tried slowing down the inrush by placing a 56 Ω, 1 W resistor in line with the AC power in, we were able to consistently run our system without the board going into fault (only running the system at 2 A). 

We are looking for inrush protection circuits with the right level of inrush protection that also work at 30 A.  However we want to verify that the problem isn't in the circuit of our BQ24133.   We are on the fence about where the problem actually lies, so we are hoping to get some input from this forum.  

Please ask any questions, and we'll try to answer them expeditiously!  Thanks!  

  • Hello Steven,

    For section 9.3.19, you will need to look a the cycle by cycle current limit. The inrush current might exceeded the the current limit and triggers the short circuit protection. It will be helpful if you are able to probe the input inrush current.
  • "9.3.19 MOSFET Short Circuit and Inductor Short Circuit Protection
    The IC has a short circuit protection feature. Its cycle-by-cycle current monitoring feature is achieved through monitoring the voltage drop across Rdson of the MOSFETs. The charger will be latched off, but the ACFET keep on to power the system. The only way to reset the charger from latch-off status is remove adapter then plug adapter in again. Meanwhile, STAT is blinking to report the fault condition."

    Hi, I work with Steven. I've pasted the section that you referenced in your response, and I have a couple questions regarding this section.
    1) Is the cycle-by-cycle current limit different from the IDPM? My understanding is that IDPM goes to ACSET, so I was using IDPM for my calculations.
    2) Could you please tell us if there's another way to adjust the current limit using this chip other than the voltage divider on ACSET?
    3) What specific MOSFETs are you refering to, Q1, Q2, or Q3? How is Rdson measured by the IC? Where do we measure and what do we compare against to see if we are generating a fault condition?
    3) Where should we measure the inrush current?
    4) For Q1 and Q2 we are using TI part CSD87312Q3E. Is this going to have the correct Rdson?
    -Cate
  • Regarding 1, the cycle by cycle current limit is different from IDPM. IDPM is the dynamic power management which does not latch the device.

    Regarding 2, the input current limit IDPM can only be set using ACSET.

    Regarding 3, please refer to EC table on page 9 for cycle-by-cycle current limit spec. It will be very helpful if you can plot the inductor current.

    Regarding in rush current, you can measure the inrush current at the input across the input current sense resistor.

    Regarding 4, this should be okay.

  • Hi, thanks for your response! I have a clarifying question, as well as some measurements for the suggestions you made.

    1) Are there any other values or limits that latch the device?

    2) When I measured the inrush current using the current sense resistor Rac, I had some puzzling results. I put the oscilloscope probes on either side of this resistor, and took the difference between the sides using the oscilloscope's math function. When I did this, I had a 200mv to 1V spike every time I turned on our system. Since our Rac is 0.02 ohms, that means that there would theoretically be a maximum of 50 A running through that resistor when we turned on the switch. I don't think this is correct, but do you have any idea what this might mean? I have attached a video of my setup (sorry it's sideway, and every time I move the switch, the oscilloscope screen changes.

    3) I measured the current through the inductor off the charge chip, and saw that if the system was off, leaving just the battery charging, the current through the inductor was 0.499A. I then saw that when I turned on the system and it wasn't in fault, it had a max value of 0.369 A through the inductor. Finally, if our system was in charge fault, the current through the inductor would immediately drop to 0. What do you make of this data?

    Thank you!

  • Hello Cate,
    Thanks for all the additional data collection.

    I was looking through some of our older devices. ACOC will latch off the device as well.

    Based on your description on " when we turn on the power to the load, the charger goes into fault (stat LED blinks). If we unplug the 12 V adapter and plug it back in, it usually clears the fault (sometimes it takes more than one unplug/plug attempt to clear the fault)." It is highly likely the ACOC is triggering.

    The device cannot maintain the input current level if the charge current has been already reduced to zero. After the system current continues increasing to the 3.33X of input current DAC set point (with 4.2ms blank out time), ACFET/RBFET latches off and an adapter removal and system shutdown is required to force ACDET < 0.6V to reset IC. After IC reset from latch off, ACFET/RBFET can be turned on again.

    In Steve's post, he mentioned that by adding a 56ohm resistor in line with the adapter, he is able to solve the issue. This is because the 56ohm resistor is limiting the current such that it does not exceed the ACOC threhold.

    I apologize for the missing information in the datasheet. We will make improvement on our datasheet in the future.

    Unfortunately, I cannot open the the video file you uploaded so I cannot check the setup. However, from the scope capture of Steve's post, the inrush spikes are in us range. The deglitch time for the faults are typically in ms range. Thus, I think inrush current is not the cause of the latch off.
  • Hi Jing,

    Thank you for your prompt response! 

    Good to know what our problem could possibly be, but can you think of any ways that ACOC could be avoided while still keeping the full power of the system (so no 10 watt resistors in line)? My understanding is that ACOC stands for "AC Overcurrent" is that correct?

    Additionally, we were able to get the development board for the BQ24133, and saw that when connected to our system, the charge chip on the development board would never go into fault under the same conditions that would fault our system, even when I changed the ACset and Iset resistances to match those that we have in our system. What do you make of this data?

    Thank you so much for your help!

    -Cate

  • Hi Jing,

    Another quick question, I was looking at the PCB layout guidelines specified in page 30 of the datasheet for the BQ24133, and I was wondering which reference designator on figure 18 (attached) "input capacitor" refers to? Here is the passage I'm referring to:

    "1. Place the input capacitor as close as possible to the PVCC supply and ground connections and use the shortest copper trace connection. These parts should be placed on the same layer of the PCB instead of on different layers and using vias to make this connection."

    Thank you!

    -Cate

  • The statement refers to the input capacitors for AVCC pin (C1), PVCC (C4). Thanks!
  • Hi Cate,

    I would recommend to refer to the BQ24133EVM schematic for reference. The input cap is referring as the converter input cap. So it will be C7 and C8 on the EVM schematic. In the capture figure 18, the input cap is referring to C4

  • Hi Cate,

    Please see additional feedback from our product line:

    The issue is related to the high current of the system, the LC resonance or the bad dynamic response of the adaptor. It seems not to be a charger issue.

    - There is a fundamental question requiring clarification – Where is the 30A coming from in the original design consideration (adaptor or battery)?  Keep in mind, the Q2 and Q3 are equivalent to diode OR for power source to the system. The system will draw the current from adaptor (12V) as higher priority if the adaptor is plugged in, and then from battery (7.2V) ONLY if the adaptor is unplugged. The power is not suppose from both adaptor AND battery at the same time. what are the voltage and current spec of the adaptor?  This seems not clear and the potential issue  - 12V adaptor is dragged to 7.2V.

    - The Rac is to sense the input current and the input current control loop can limit the input current by adjusting the charging current, targeting Psys + Pchg = < Pin.  The system is to draw tens of Ampere current from adaptor, conflicting with the Rac limit design 2.5A. Rac does not perform the function and seems redundant in the current design.

    - There is severe LC resonant  due to the high system current, the cable inductance, capacitance or bad adaptor dynamic response. To verify this, one test can be done to isolate the issue. Remove Q3 BATFET and R11, Short  Q1, Q2 and Rac (create a direct power path from adaptor and system. I would expect to the waveform of  12V would have the same ringing as the blue trace.

    I am wondering whether the connection cable length of the adaptor or system can be cut short. Do you use the same adaptor to power up TI EVM or use a power supply with shorter cable to test.  You can do crossing check with Adaptor + customer board + system vs  power supply + EVM + system.   

    Thanks,

    Chuchen

  • Hi Chuchen,
    To clarify your first question, the 30A in the original design consideration is for the max current our motors can draw. If the motors are running at full speed, they will be drawing 30 amps. The power for the motors should be coming from the battery.
    Our adapter specs are as follows: 100-240V input, 50/60hz, 2.0A. Output: 12V DC, 3.0A.
    We did the modifications that you asked for us to do to bypass the charge chip and see if the ringing was the AC adapter or the charge chip. The results were a bit puzzling. After modifying the board as directed, we found that this is the waveform when the system is switched off and charging the 7.4V battery.

    And this is the waveform when the system is switched on.

    It's important to note that the ringing seen in this screenshot is not the same as in the waveform screenshot shown in the very first post, and it has a completely different timescale (100 ns versus 5 microseconds.) Additionally, the very first screenshot shows the behavior when the system is switched on, while when the system was switched on in these experiments, it had no such behavior.

    Finally, I'm a little unclear about what I'm trying to look for by doing a "crossing check with Adaptor + customer board + system vs power supply + EVM + system." Am I supposed to measure the VSystem waveform, or am I just supposed to observe the STAT pin light to see if the system is going in to fault or not?

    Thank you!
    -Cate

  • Cate,

    It looks like to me that the adaptor was plugged in when you started the system. The issue here is that the system current will be from adaptor (12V) first if the adaptor is plugged in. The battery won't help until the adaptor voltage is pull down to 7.2V. I think this will trigger some protection functions of the adaptor before the battery provides the current.

    For the waveform, it is not clear about the measurement point. Since you have the EVM working properly, cross check is to compare and help to find the difference.

    The operation of the system should be with adaptor unplugged.

  • Hi Eric,

    Thank you very much for your response. So just to confirm, this TI BQ24133 chip doesn't support system power while AC adapter is in. Is this specified anywhere in the datasheet or anything? We'd really like to be able to use our system while it's plugged in and charging.

    Additionally, we'd like to hear why this charge chip doesn't work with the adapter plugged in. Is this just a recommendation not to use this charger in this way, or is it absolutely not supported in this capacity?  When we used the dev board with our system, we could turn on the system while the adapter was still in and charging and the chip on the devboard wouldn't go into fault.

    Thank you!
    -Cate

  • Cate,

    We haven’t heard back from you. We are assuming that you were able to resolve the issue. If not, just post a reply below or create a new thread if the thread has locked due to time-out.

    Thanks,

    Ning.
    Please click "This Resolved my issue" button if this post answer your question.
  • This issue is not resolved.  As explained above, the charger will select either the adapter OR the battery as the source.  It cannot supplement from both the adapter and battery at the same time as they are at different voltage levels.  Thus the power path function is not useful to support the 2-30A loading when it is above the adapter rating.  We can suggest to use BQ24133 as the battery charger without power path, this allows the system/motor to power off the battery.  The first step you can try is to disconnect the path of adaptor to the system on the current board.  

    If the above scheme works and no power path is needed for other circuit like the control board, then you can move all system loading and control to battery and save Q3.  Q1 and Rac may be removed as well.

    Thanks,

    Chuchen

  • We are still working on it. Thanks for your patience!