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ADS129xR EVM doesn't seem to work with real tissue.

I'm working on a project to detect a small impedance change in tissue for a different reason than respiration but the technique is identical. I notice in all the data sheets, application notes, etc. that these devices are always used with a patient simulator which is purely resistive. Yet in the data sheet they show the model for the connection to the patient as a 51K resistor in parallel with a 47nF capacitor. This is never included in any of the descriptions of patient simulators. We have tested our concept with equivalent resistive simulators and even in a glycerin/water mixture acting as a phantom. Works great. However, as soon as we attach the sensors to human tissue (cadaver tissue in our case) the capacitance is so high that the RESP_MODP and RESP_MODN square waves because low amplitude triangle waves and we get no modulation. 

In the application report SBAA181.pdf states in section 4 that the effect of cable capacitance will adversely affect the signal but there's not mention of this huge capacitance from tissue itself. I'm curious if anyone has actually manage to get the respiration function of this series of parts to even work? If so, how much did you have to change the EVM design? 

  • Hi John,

    Thanks for your question.

    I am looking into this with our team and will try to offer some suggestions towards the end of this week.

    Best Regards,

  • Hi John,

    I have listed a few ideas below that may help:

    1. The problem may not be large series capacitance between the electrodes and the skin. Instead, it is likely the parasitic cable capacitance to ground that is interacting with the cable resistance to low-pass filter the modulation signal. We generally recommend using cables with less than 5k ohms (even 1k if possible). What is the resistance from your board connection to the electrode?
    2. If you cannot find cables with low enough resistance, you might also try experimenting with little or no blocking in the demodulation settings. I would suggest reducing the phase incrementally down to the minimum (22.5 degrees) and see if that improves the circuit's ability to resolve the RESP waveform.
    3. Finally, we could also try slowing down the modulation frequency. Are you currently running it at 32kHz or 64kHz?

    I will also try to experiment with this a bit more early next week as my schedule opens up.

    Best Regards,

  • Hi, I have the same problem. Can you please show the schematics how to connect the two electrode to the body  using the ADS1292Revaluation board to test the respiratory.

    Thanks,

    amik

  • Thanks for your reply but as I mentioned in my post, everything works with a resistive simulator and using a glycerin/water "phantom" that is mixed to have approximately the same dielectric constant as the tissue. If cable capacitance was a problem, wouldn't it also be a problem with these as well?

    We are using 32 kHz. We can custom make cables of any length or resistance we want. Whatever it takes to get it to work at all first. 

  • Hi John,

    Maybe I misunderstood the effects you are seeing on the modulation signal. Can you please probe the RESP_MOD output pins (before the series impedance), and compare this to what you measure at the input pins INP and INN? Please share a scope capture of the two waveforms together and we can look at the phase shift between the two.

    Could you model your setup for us, including cables? I want to run some simulations/experiments on the EVM and see if we can optimize the discrete components better.

    Best Regards,

  • Hi John,

    Maybe you can explain a little bit more what you want to measure. I you want to measure something with the skin (scl) it's not possible with the 32khz modulator. The 32khz is used to penetrate easy trough the skin and measuring thorax impedance.

    I doubt if cadaver tissue will be the real thing.

     

  • My original question was "Has anyone been able to get this to work on real tissue?". So far no one has answered yes.

  • Hi john,

    Yes we have tested it on ourselfs (with battery supply and USB isolator) and it works well for resparation.

    However we are interested in ICG and for that we need an better noise free signal, we are now in the process to accomplish this by adding a precise current source etc.

    With 64khz it works better with 10n instead of the 2n2 capacitors in the source.

  • We have done kind of the same thing. We resorted to a 4 sensor configuration and increased the size of the capacitors and are able to get it working on real tissue for our intended application. 

    We are also adding a precise current source. 

    Thanks for the response.