PMSM motor control

daniel lybaert said:

In the controllers is used the sdPIC33FJ64MC706A from microchip now,

 Hi, if a slow controller like this can do the job I hope also the other TI uC can all do the job, the C2000 seires has a very fine resolution PWM motion control and can overkill your application. What is needed is to rewire the processor to your old design and rewrite software to perform smooth control and energy recycle from which kind of motor you have, I suppose it can be a syncronous multiphase brushless, so active rectification can do the job of both energy restoring and active braking also on sensorless.

Hi Roberto,

My real problem is the speed of the motors, they can do maximum 3500 rpm with the existing controllers and I want them to do minimum 6000 rpm.

I can't jet program the PIC's from Microchip, that's why I want to try Your system and than use the low site gate control from the DRV 8301 ore the 8312 on the switching part of my existing controllers. The TI programming system seems to be match more easy to teach ?

How the TI C 2000 can overwrite my gate control system when I remove it and use the gate control system from TI ?

My motors (2 of them) are PM BL 3 phase  motors of each 10 to 20 KW, 72 - 96 V and max. 500 A.

Your advice is not to use the TI system DRV 8301 ore 8312 in my controllers ?

Then I must find an other solution,

Thanks,

Daniel.

daniel,

I'm having a bit of a hard time following what you are asking.  None of the hardware we offer will support a 500A motor. Our Piccolo devices certainly can (and are) used in these applications though. You will need to get your current and voltage signals from your inverter scaled into the ADC inputs of the Piccolo device.  You can follow the InstaSPIN-FOC and -MOTION user's guide to do this correctly in HW and SW.

Using InstaSPIN-FOC will allow you to control the torque very well without the use of a rotor sensor.  In handling regeneration and braking those are just modes of operation and can decide when to provide a controlled output.  You can drive the torque, dump energy into the D axis for braking, or keep proper alignment to maximize regeneration energy.  These are by no means "automatic", what is "automatic" is the the proper and stable dynamic rotor angle tracking and field oriented torque control.  FAST and InstaSPIN-FOC is a four quadrant controller.  There is still work to do from a system standpoint.

Hello Chris and Roberto,

Thanks to both of You for the advice.

I'm not jet a specialist in these theories. Today I was opening one of the new motors, for my second project, and I see that between the stater winding's ( 24 : 3 = 8 : 2 N&S) = a 4 pole "flat" rotor disc of approximately 7 - 8 mm thick with the magnets integrated. The stater's have a special form, (for me anyway) both have triangle out striplings under an angle of (I guess) 30 degrees. These motors have two stater's (in parallel ) on both sides of the rotor disc and are a little displaced from each other. This is probably normal for small ( 200 mm in diameter and 130 mm long + the water cooling part ) PMSM traction motors of 10 to 20 KW.  

"In my opinion", this rotor disc can run under a speed of 6.000 rpm ! My grinding disc of 230 mm run's also at 6.500 rpm and is no way in metal !

The real switching site  (MOSFET's ore IGBT's I didn't checked these part's jet in close up ) in the controllers get there gate signal from the PIC, I suppose, when I take out the PIC control and use DRV 8301 ore 8312 for the gate signals off the existing (MOSFET's ore IGBT's) this must work ?

The PIC now, get's feedback from hall sensors and current sensors on the board. The DRV 8301 / 8312 can also work without feedback, as far as I have read ?

I must investigate a little more the dsPIC33FJ64MC706A that is used on the board now, as far as I have seen this chip can also switch with higher speeds.

Maybe it's better,  more easy and more economic  to study the programming of the PIC's ?

Thanks again and greets,

Daniel. 

daniel lybaert said:

"In my opinion", this rotor disc can run under a speed of 6.000 rpm ! My grinding disc of 230 mm run's also at 6.500 rpm and is no way in metal !

 Hi Daniel, first Jet you wrote two times is instead of yet I suppose, again from this phrase I fear you also are in some beginner stage in mechanic theory too, Inertia is determined by mass and distance from spinning center, so a lightweight fiber from high speed grinding disk is less subject to break than metal. More heavy and far from axis are the mass more worst is the Inertia!!!

 When you pass the critical resistance module no more metal can be of help and a little increase disrupt rotor. Remember Inertia and energy follow square law.

 Again electric part is involved in, when you double speed you also double frequency and again increase a lot parasitic current and also iron and copper too losses.

daniel lybaert said:

The real switching site  (MOSFET's ore IGBT's I didn't checked these part's jet in close up ) in the controllers get there gate signal from the PIC, I suppose, when I take out the PIC control and use DRV 8301 ore 8312 for the gate signals off the existing (MOSFET's ore IGBT's) this must work ?

 Please reword this sentence and try be more clean, you never spin your motors?

daniel lybaert said:

The PIC now, get's feedback from hall sensors and current sensors on the board. The DRV 8301 / 8312 can also work without feedback, as far as I have read ?

 PIC DSPIC are thing I removed from my job a long time ago, DRV are Low voltage integrated driver, they can work spinning motor as from your choice, if you know how motor work then you can decide to use vector from magnetic, inducted current/voltages, driver has nothing to do with.

daniel lybaert said:

Maybe it's better,  more easy and more economic  to study the programming of the PIC's ?

 IHMO, NO!!! Is an old technology with bad development tools, many people in the world use them, but I never wish use one more, I remember how long time was needed to step one assembly instruction and how simple is to get a real time debugger on TI side MSP, C2xxx or other processors.

 INSTASPIN can be configured in a friendly manner, assembly/c criptic example need a long time to be fully understand and cannot be taylored to real working case, real time tuning of performance and parameter can really do the job in a while.

 Again IMHO you need a SOLID mechanic knowledge before to afford a so big motor to avoid exceed torque, normal and torsion modules.

 A solid understanding of HIGH current motor drive and vector drive are also a must before to start assemble a prototype.

Hi Roberto,

OK I understand, I'm to stupid !

It was an old controller (from "Golden Motor" 72V / 500A)) that I wanted to try to repair and at the same time study the TI DRV 8301 / 8312 and try to combine them.

It' s with trail and error that we can get experience, Yes ?

I contacted the manufacturer GOLDEN MOTOR and they promised to make a 6000 rpm version, motors and controllers !  

No sales for TI, as far as I could understand You, this is only for little play-toy motors.

I was looking last week to a video of my brother when he was driving with his high speed motor bike ( "Kawasaki 1.100" I belief it was) ! On the speedometer I could see the rpm of the PETROL ENGINE

16.000 rpm and more, I think only one person must go back to school here and study mechanics !

The motors in RC airplanes and helicopters can do 2500 and even 9400 rpm / V !

This electric motor PMSM, 10 KW of GOLDEN MOTOR have a disc with the magnets  in the motor of less than 200 mm, I belief the exact size is 160 mm, and this disc can't do more than 3.500 rpm ?

Greets,

Daniel. 

daniel lybaert said:

OK I understand, I'm to stupid !

 Hi, I never said this, nor dumb nor offensive, just feel from your writing some  transparence you are not familiar with mechanics concepts, from this also you enforced more and more....

 90V 500Amp develop a power of 45KW, torque when you deliver that power... Tangential force is so high to destroy an hardened material as the permanent magnet.

 The other example in your writing enforce a lot your ingenuity and lessen your knowledge: Inertia from steel is greater than the one of aeronautic alloy, forever greater than grinding disk, a 300mm grinding disk has nothing to do with 1Kg of mass at 150mm from spin axis!!!! Square law from mass and distance do a big role and a fragile material like magnetic of rotors can not whitstand a high speed torque at double speed too... Try on motor, you probably can spin at no load but broke at full load.

 DRV can spindle a near .4KW motor, all that is useful on automotive automation and a lot of industrial application, on toy you can use china toy with no reliability.

daniel lybaert said:

16.000 rpm and more, I think only one person must go back to school here and study mechanics !

 Is this for me'? No trouble came there and me or my coworkers can evaluate you forever if you can pass exam or not!

 BYE!