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BQ40Z50-R2: BQ40Z50-R2

Part Number: BQ40Z50-R2
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: BQ25708

we are using your controller to control  lithium battery under 1P4S configuration.  i would like to learn what kind of parameter your controller ( BQ40Z50-R2 ) can monitor and register for tracking the battery pack capacity or some parameter which can equivalent to predict battery capacity ? 

if you only track the charge/discharge cycle count,  can you track the partial  charge/discharge cycle for an equivalent damage/degradation ? 

do you have an application or best engineering practice for tracking battery capacity ( or equivalent parameter ) ?

thanks

jason Li 

reliability engineer 

8184472630

  • Hello Jason,

    This gauge uses our impedance track algorithm to measure and predict battery capacity. Here is a document explaining the process, and here is another one. One of the things that is nice about this method is that it has no issue tracking damage/degradation from partial cycles/temperature/any cause. That is because the battery's impedance value shows these changes and we can know by measuring. We also have a parameter called SOH (state-of-health) that can be read from the gauge that tells you the degradation of the cells. Let me know if you have any more specific/follow-up questions.

    thanks,

    Alex Mazany

  • Alex:  may i setup an appointment with you to further explore the application of impedance gauge and SOH gauge as battery prognostic health management tool ? 

    thanks

    jason.li@draeger.com

    978-773-0936

  • Hello Jason,

    I accepted your friend request and saw your message. Lets continue this conversation there or in email.

    thanks,

    Alex Mazany 

  • alex: what is the threhold shall i setup for impedance gauge and SOH if i would like to be alarm when the capacity is drop below 70% of the initial capacity ?

    thanks

    jason

  • Hello Jason,

    I'm not quite sure what you are referring to. There is no alarm for SOH on this part; you will need a host controller to read the SOH value and determine from there. We do have alarms for remaining capacity as the battery is being used if that is what you mean. If you have a microcontroller, you could read the SOH and when that reaches 70% then you would be at roughly 70% of the initial design capacity.

    thanks,

    Alex M.

  • alex: 

    1) if SOH value can be used to monitor the capacity degradation,  what register can we read the absolute capacity from the beginning of installation since we need to monitor absolute capacity to define the minimum capacity to trigger an alarm since we need to gaurentee 4 hour operation with the battery, 

    2) what is the impedance can offer us ?  failure mode identification or the root cause of the failure mode ? 

    can we setup a real time chat ?

  • Hello Jason,

    1) The closest thing to what you are describing would be the design capacity register which is just the number from the battery's datasheet. There are some other tools, such as the Qmax which is measured and updated over the operation. There is also a register that tells how many times Qmax has been updated. It sounds like for what you are doing, you wouldn't necessarily need the max Qmax over the lifetime information. The minimum capacity to guarantee a certain time of operation would be based on the current capacity, which you could read from the updated Qmax. I don't see why it would depend on the initial capacity.

    2) The impedance is used by the gauge to implement a variety of features. You would not gain much information by reading the impedance directly, but rather from the various registers calculated using the impedance. For example, FCC is essentially Qmax, but using system information and impedance to account for voltage drops to give a more accurate estimate of how much energy can be extracted from the battery under load. 

    thanks,

    Alex M.

  • alex,  

    1) shall i track Qmax and number of Qmax or just Qmax for the purpose of tracking the capacity below 1000 mAh for instance ? 

    2) how to get FCC ?  is it the estimated full capacity ? 

    thanks

    jason 

  • Hello Jason,

    Say you need at least 700mah to run for 4 hours, I think it makes more sense to read the Qmax/FCC to see if it is >700mah, rather than try to calculate based on SOH and the initial capacity. I mentioned that you can track Qmax and how many times it has been updated, but I don't think that extra information would be very useful. So I think the latter method (just checking if Qmax/FCC is okay) makes more sense.

    FCC is the calculated using Qmax, impedance, and load conditions. I find this image helpful:

    The battery may have 1000mah, but under load, the voltage will drop according to the impedance. This will cause the battery to hit the terminate voltage sooner, and you won't get all of the energy out of the battery. The TRM has an explanation in section 6.1. You can program the gauge with the load you expect to use in your application, and it can use that to simulate a discharge and find the expected FCC.

    thanks,

    Alex M.

  • thanks, alex: 

    i guess the FCC need the load info.  since the load info is custom dependent,  may i activate a machine learning to customize the load for the individual device in the field ? 

    thanks

    jason 

  • Hello Jason,

    There are quite a few options for the load, including user-inputted values. Unfortunately, really complex load profiles can't be modeled well using this. The better you can model the load, the more accurate the gauge's FCC and REMCAP predictions will be. But an approximation will still give you decent accuracy depending on how close it is. Quite a few of these are measured by the gauge, so something like "Avg I Last Run" would adjust on each individual device on the field without any extra math on the host's part. 

    thanks,

    Alex M.

  • alex,  will get back to you next week upon communicating with engineering team

    thanks

    jason 

  • alex:  here is a feedback from my network: 

    Yes, it is feasible. The implementation is also rather straightforward. You may read Qmax through SMBus. The drawback of this approach is that you host will be stuck with this fuel gauge IC since this is not standard SMBus commend. So, it is up to draeger’s decision.

    my question to alex; 

    what is the milestone to communicate with gauges to acquire Qmax via SMBus command ? 

    jason 

  • Hello Jason,

    Could you elaborate on what you mean by milestone? If you are referring to the manufacturer access commands, those require some extra steps, but are not too complex. Here are the steps in the TRM:

    The Qmax is stored in GaugeStatus3 in 0x0075. You may also use some of the PF modes for your application. Qmax imbalance will disable the pack if there is a Qmax difference between the cells:

    You can set a custom threshold (default is 10% difference). There is also a capacity degradation PF mode that sounds relevant. 

    This will disable the pack once the capacity falls below an adjustable threshold. 

    Anyways, I am still not sure what you mean by milestones here, so please let me know if this is what you meant.

    thanks,

    Alex M.

  • Alex: 

    would you share with us if you have customers who successfully implement your FCC analysis algorithm in the past ? particularly 

    1) you have two alternative algorithms to estimate FCC, which one is easier to implement in application with less uncertainty ? 

    2) what kind of resource budget to implement/qualification for the predictive maintenance initiative ?  ( say one engineer for 1 month ? )

    3) what is the major tasks or uncertainty during the qualification ? 

    thanks

    jason 

  • Hello Jason,

    I'm a little uncertain about what you mean by FCC analysis algorithm. If you mean just acquiring an FCC, the gauge calculates that itself based on the load mode configuration you set. If you mean reading the FCC in order to do some calculation on the host, you would have to be more specific about what that calculation is. The built-in PF protections and alerts can offer protection for a large range of failure conditions. As for the the other questions:

    1) By two algorithms are you referring to CEDV vs. Impedance track? Or are you talking about constant current vs. constant power mode? Assuming you are talking about the load modes, it is based on the load you expect to see in your application. For example, if the battery is supplying a buck converter, you may see battery current increase as its voltage decreases. However, this is a constant power load which would be well modeled by load mode 1. This gauge uses impedance track, so it isn't possible to use CEDV with it. 

    2) By the predictive maintenance initiative, do you mean setting up an alert for when the capacity degrades below a certain threshold? There is a built-in PF alert for this, so it would not take much work to use that. Setting up the host to read that alert and forward the message to the user/maintainer of the equipment would be more effort. But that depends on system-level implementation that I do not know. This is why I have a hard time assigning a time for implementing a feature; I don't know the rest of the system/host that plays a big role in the implementation. 

    3) Again, I'm not sure what you mean by this. In terms of tasks to set up the gauge, you do need to identify the CHEMID and run a learning cycle on the battery to generate a golden image for the gauge. We have materials about this, and it does take some effort. This only needs to be done once though, and all of the gauges can be loaded with the golden image to configure them for your application. 

    thanks,

    Alex M.

  • thanks, Alex,  you answer question 1) & 2).  need to discuss the clarity on 3). 

    we have implement BQ40Z50-R2 (fuel gauge - battery pack manager) and BQ25708 (charge controller) in the host. would you expand your guide on question 3) further so that we can add the technical specification requirement document to define the expectation and the qualification work to be initiated ? 

    thanks

  • Hello Jason,

    From my understanding of your questions, you're looking to disable the pack once you pass a certain degradation level. You have to ensure a certain amount of runtime for the system. Let me know if your question is different.

    As Alex mentioned, we do offer some features like the Capacity Degradation PF that will disable the pack if the Qmax drops too low. We also report the RunTimeToEmpty, but this will fluctuate with the discharge rate.

    It would be difficult to guarantee a minimum runtime without knowing all the conditions (discharge rates, temperature, etc) of the battery since batteries are very non-linear.

    Sincerely,

    Wyatt Kelle