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PSU for Electrical Music Instruments

Other Parts Discussed in Thread: LM25085, TPS563200, LM5088, LMZM33603, LMZM33606, TPS54320, TPS54620, TPS54560B, TPS54560

Hello there! I'm an electrical engineering student and trying to design a PSU for an electrical music instrument. Input is 15V switching desktop PSU. I need 3 different power output rails; +12.7V(2.9A), -13V(2.8A), +6.5V(1.1A). The main requirement is, it has to be noise and ripple free as much as possible. Here is my questions;

Which buck controller is the best for this application? Should i use same same controller for each rail? Should every controller work on same frequency? Can i layout all rails on the same PCB?

  • Here are some things to think about.
    1. Assuming 90% eff for the positive supplies and 85% for the negative, you have about
    96W of power from the 15V input; about 6.4A
    2. If you can stand the power loss in the positive supplies they could be LDOs; no noise generated. This will increase the load the 15V
    3. The negative supply can use an ordinary buck as an inverting buck-boost; you will need a >3A device.
    4. You can put them all on one PCB, and synchronizing is a good idea.
    5. I would try to get EVMs of the candidate devices and test that way.
  • Seyfullah,

    There are many possible solutions.   I would start with the Webench Power Architect:

    https://webench.ti.com/webench5/power/webench5.cgi?origin=landing_page&app=powerarchitect&lang_chosen=en_US

    You can input your requirements for the 3 rails.  I have submitted your requirements and the tool returned:

    Supply 1, LM25085, 12.7 V @ 2.9 A

    Supply 2, TPS563200, 6.5 V @ 1.1 A

    Supply 3, LM25088-2, -13 V @ 2.8 A

    Undoubtedly there are many other possible solutions.  Alternately you can use the regular Webench design tool and input your individual rails:

    Entering the requirements for your first rail returned 111 possible design solutions.  You can brows thru them to pick out the features that best fit your needs and the level of complexity you are comfortable with.  If you are a power novice, you may want to focus on modules (easiest) or integrated switch converters (moderate) and avoid controllers (hardest).  You mention controller above.  Are you required to use a controller?  Can you use a converter with integrated FETs or module?

    Let me address your individual concerns:

    For lowest ripple and noise, you can use an LDO follower after your switching supply.  You will need to raise the output of the switcher to Your desired Vout plus the drop out voltage of the LDO.  Unfortunately, we do not have a negative output LDO rated above 1.5 A.  You may need to use a secondary output filter instead, unless you can split that output into two 1.5 A outputs.

    Which is best is dependent on your unique requirements.  You can probably find a single converter that will satisfy all three requirements.  However Webench suggested that three different converters be used.  You can use the links above to browse solutions.

    There may be some advantage to operating at a synchronized identical frequency.  Many converters will support that feature, but most likely you will have to supply the external clock.  You may find it beneficial to operate each converter out of phase, however the main benefits of out of phase synchronization are on the input side of the supply.  An additional complication is that your negative output inverting buck boost circuit will require the clock (and any other control circuits) to be level shifted.

    Yes you can design them all on the same PCB.  Make sure to follow the layout guidelines for each converter that you use.  Pay special attention to the inverting buck boost.  The IC ground acts as teh negative output voltage in that topology.

    Another possibility could be a single supply with 3 isolated outputs, but you probably are not interested in designing your own custom transformer.

    Let us know if you have further questions.

  • Thank you for the answer.

    I should have told you that i've already checked the Webench Designer and i'm using LDO after all of them :) I Actually need +/-12V and +5V.

    First, i was planning to use power modules cause they are the eaisest way. But also they are expensive. LMZM33603 is OK for both +12V and +5V rails but i need LMZM33606 for -12V to handle 3A output. So i decided to switch, converters but i could not find any negative converter that can supply around 3A. So i've decided to use controller. I should go with modules actually cause i'm really new to DC-DC converters:) If i use controllers, i think LM5088 is the best option for me. I can use it for all the 3 rails.
  • Hello again John. 

    I've decided to use converter instead of controllers. Made some resarch on this website and i think this solution is better.

    +15V to +12.7v ( 2.7A) using TPS54320 and then LDO

    +15V to -13v ( 2.6A) using TPS54620 as an inverter and then LDO

    +15V to +5.5V ( 1.04A) using TPS54320 and then LDO

    I'm trying to find out what is maximum output current of TPS54620 as an inverter. Found application guide here but formula is a little bit complicated for me. I need to estimate output riplle current etc. But i think it can supply 2.6A. Am i right?

    I'm plannig to set SwF to 500kHz for each rail. Do i need to sync them? I really do not know how to do it :(

    I know these devices has over current protection but is there any method to set the output current externally? 

    I could not find any reference design that using switching converter and LDO. I want to check it too see where should i put the capacitors on the rails. 

  • Hi User,

    TPS54620 and TPS54320 are very popular choices. You can use TPS54620 as an inverting buck-boost, but unfortunately it will not work for your application. For inverting buck-boost, the IC ground acts as the negative output, so the total applied input voltage is Vin-(Vout) or 15-(-13)=28 V. That is too high for TPS54620. Also you will find it difficult to locate a negative voltage LDO rated for 2.6 A For the inverting buck-boost, during the on time, the output capacitor provides all the load current and the inductor is charged at a higher rate equal to Iout / (1 - D) where D = -vout/ (-Vout - Vin) = -13 / (-13 -15) = 0.464. So the required converter output current is 4.85 A. You will need a converter with a Vin > 28 V and Iout > 4.85 A. Our group does not supply any ICs which meet that specification. Let me forward this to a specialist that does.

    The TPS54320 does not have any external sync clock output. If you want to synchronize them you will need to supply that 500 kHz clock signal. You do not necessarily need to sync them. You can just set them to each operate at 500 kHz.

    The current limit is not adjustable. The control loop will allow the TPS54320 to put out exactly the load current required to keep the output voltage at the desired regulation value up to the current limit.

    It is easy to add the LDO follower. It is pretty much just designing the TPS54320 converter and adding the LDO with switcher output = LDO input an a common ground.
  • User,

    TPS54560B l\looks like a good match for your inverting buck-boost:
    www.ti.com/.../TPS54560B

    You can use this app note which works for TPS54560B as well:
    www.ti.com/.../slva317

    There is an excel calculator available that should make your design easier:
    www.ti.com/.../swiftinv-calc

    Have fun with your project!
  • This helps a lot John thanks,

    Final questions for today ( hopefully)

    I'm gonna use TPS54560 for the all outputs. Is this OK or should i use it for only -13V output?

    Also how can i add over current protection to the rails? Hence it is for Music Instruments, i need protect to device. All i can do is adding basic fuses after LDOs :(
  • User,

    You can use TPS54560 for all the rails if you like.  TPS54320 is a better fit for your two positive voltages though.  All these converters have built in current limit.  You can add additional fuses if you like.

  • Dear John,

    I've a few more questions. What if i do not use LDOs to get a ripple and noise free output ? Is it possible to get a clean output from a switching PSU? Webench show that output ripple on +12V rail around 600uV so it is perfect but can i get that on actual hardware PCB? Also can i get the same low ripple on -12V rail using TPS54560 in inverting topology? As far as i know there is some limit on output inductor value so i can not increase the inductor value too much to get the least amount of ripple.

    Best Regards,
    S. Gökduman
  • S,

    I don't know where that Webench number came from, but for a basic TPS54560B (you should use TPS54560B as TPS54560 is NRND) dc/dc converter, you can expect around 5 mV ripple at the switching frequency.  See this example from the TPS54560B datasheet:

    This waveform shows the basic ripple with 20 MHz BWL.  You may also see high frequency switching noise present on the output.  An RC snubber circuit from the switching node to GND as well as some HF bypass capacitors on the output will help.  You could also consider adding a ferrite bead to the output.  There are other example waveforms in the datasheet.  Let me know if you have further questions.

  • here is what i get from Webench when i increase ouput inductor value to 15uH from 1.8uH.  If i can get around 1mV ripple at the output, i may not use the LDOs after.

  • S.

    Can you tell me what inputs you used to get that low ~ 500 uV output ripple?  The designs I tried had more realistic results around 7 mV.  Getting below 5 mV or so is difficult. without external filters or LDOs.  Please let me know so I can alert our Webench team.

  • I actually have not entered any input info. But i'm plannig to use this Desktop Adapter as a sorce. It's datasheet in here ;

    https://www.meanwell.co.uk/media/productPDF/gs90-spec_4.pdf

    Also here is the project link on Webench;

    https://webench.ti.com/appinfo/webench/scripts/SDP.cgi?ID=531839E69D3C40DB

  • S.

    I have verified that there is an error in the Webench software that incorrectly calculates very low values for output voltage ripple. The Webench team is working on a fix as a high priority.
  • Thank you for the answer John. Is there any formula for output voltage ripple calculation? I could not find in the datasheet.
  • S,

    See these links for some good technical reference on output voltage ripple:
    www.ti.com/.../slva630a.pdf
    training.ti.com/.../measuring_output_noise.pdf
    www.ti.com/.../slva477b.pdf

    There are lots more technical data on ti.com. You can easily search for and view them.

    By the way, what is driving your requirement for such low output voltage ripple? I play a little electric guitar and can tell you for sure that none of my amplifiers have "low ripple" power supplies.
  • I actually downloaded all Of them but haven't find time to read them. I will soon.

    It is for modular synthesizers. Especially it is important on oscillator and filter section. A lot of modules have been designed by amateurs so power supply is getting more and more important if user have theese modules