4 phase control

ken dias

Part Number: CSD88539ND
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: DRV8844, DRV8412, DRV8881EEVM, LM4040

Not sure about the 4 phase part i.e. how to use this to control a 4 phase bldc motor - what part do you connect it to. Looking for where it fits in the overall control system

over 7 years ago

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

Can you provide a motor part number that you want to control?

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

This is not a standard motor but one we are developing. Prototype consists of 4 flat coils which are stationary and a PM that rotates; essentially a pancake motor. V=24VDC, I=2A. Presently controller made of several discrete parts i.e transistors, diodes etc. We are trying for an integrated design

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

Please consider the DRV8844 and DRV8412 as initial recommendations. This is assuming you need 4 independent half bridges to control the 4 phases.

Would one of these two work for you application? If so, we can continue to refine your choices.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

DRV8844 would be my choice. As mentioned, our motor has 4 coils. Will use MC33033 to connect to the 4 half bridges. Any refinements welcome.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago

Intellectual 795 points

Part Number: CSD88539ND

I have a 4 phase motor but not sure how to determine whether I need a half wave or full wave controller. There are 4 outputs going to the 4 coils in one config so 4 wires and in the other config, in addition there is another output going to the neutral i.e. where the 4 coils are joined together, so 5 wires in all.

0 JohnFullilove over 7 years ago

TI__Expert 5130 points

Ken, hello. We have received your query and are going to consult with a few teams internal here to get an optimal answer. Please give us a few days to respond.

Best Regards,
J. Fullilove
TI Designs

0 Wang5577 over 7 years ago

TI__Guru 56650 points

Ken,

Sorry for the delay. I keep watching “MD-AMD” forum, but missed this “industrial system” post with a FET part number in the title.

Now, back to the motor drive recommendation, do you have the motor model name and detail spec? Any webpage link?

According to your winding connection description, it like a BLDC motor. We have a lot of 3 phase BLDC drivers. I am courious what application require 4 phase motor? If we have to drive four windings with a sequential order, all 3 phase motor drivers may not meet the requirement. Let us clarify the motor type first.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to JohnFullilove

Intellectual 795 points

Waiting for a reply.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Wang5577

Intellectual 795 points

it is for turn table motors which are not standard i.e. no nameplate

0 Wang5577 over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru 56650 points

Ken,

After I saw your another post, let me modify this reply and link this post to another one:

So far, I don’t find a 4phase BLDC motor driver from http://www.ti.com/motor-drivers/brushless-dc-bldc-drivers/products.html. But, TI has some quad half bridge drivers.

Since 4 phase BLDC motor is not commonly used, can you change the turn table motor to 3 phase BLDC motor or stepper motor? Or do you get any suggestion from motor manufactory?

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

Sorry for the delay.

I have looked at the schematic of the control that you posted at e2e.ti.com/.../728733 . Can you provide the sequence of voltage/current on the four phases?

The DRV8844 may work for your application assuming the device meets your current requirements.

0 Wang5577 over 7 years ago in reply to Wang5577

TI__Guru 56650 points

Ken,

I saw you have another post and asked same question. But, that one had more info and you also got a recommendation： DRV8844. Let me link two posts together.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Wang5577

Intellectual 795 points

no cannot change to 3 phase

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

I have provide details and even a schematic but so far no useful replies. So to repeat: I need to connect from a 4 phase controller (MC33033 no TI equiv) to a 4 phase motor. I had posted a schematic in another post. Looking for guidance on TI parts that I can use for this purpose and also a connection diagram

0 Wang5577 over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru 56650 points

Ken,

In this case, DRV8844 is recommended. You have to find out the sequence of voltage/current on those four phases. And then, we can know DRV8844 fits or not.

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to Wang5577

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

After looking at the MC33033, the DRV8844 can be used assuming additional circuitry is placed between the MC33033 and the DRV8844 to convert the four outputs used in Figures 42 and 43 to proper signals at the DRV8844.

The voltage of the bottom and top drive outputs should be below the recommended maximum of the INx and ENx pins.
The top and bottom drive outputs will require logic to control the INx and ENx signals per Figure 42 and 43.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

Thanks Rick.

Any TI app notes I can refer to for this purpose i.e. interfacing cctry between 33033 to 8844? I am looking for TI parts that can do the interface.

Also, wonder whether 1/2 or full wave (fig 41 or 43) is better.

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

No, there are no app notes. This is a unique application.

Full wave may be the better option. For 1/2 wave to work, it appears you need a fifth motor wire that connects to the center of the motor windings.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

Thanks Rick.

Actually there is a 5th wire, diagram attached. Just want to be as close to the original design as possible.CCF08062018_0004 (1).pdf

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

I see 8 wires at P1; 4 phases, 12V power to the hall elements, two hall element outputs and one ground. If you have a 5th to the motor, it appears that is a shaft ground. I ignored the shaft ground when recommending full wave.

Have you measured the resistance between two phases?

Assuming the resistance is greater than 6 Ohms, the DRV8881E may be a better choice because of the Phase/Enable interface. The logic between the MC33033 and DRV8881E should be simpler.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

Measured R between 2 phases - @ 34 ohms. Each coil has R=17 ohms.
So since ground is brought out, I wonder if the diagram shows half -wave controller or maybe ground is just that - a ground that is not really connected to the motor?
Where to get the logic for MC33033 to DRB8881E?

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

The DRV8881E should work in this case.

The ground brought out is listed as shaft ground. I think you are best using full wave from what can be seen on the schematic.

The logic will have to be created using standard logic to connect the four ouput signals of the MC33033 to the four input signals of the DRV8881E. Since only one pair of phases (A/C or B/D) is active at any time, the APH and BPH pins could be connected together. The AEN and BEN will have to be controlled separately.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

Thanks.

I would need 4 full bridge drivers i.e.16 drv's? Going to be a bit unwieldy, any suggestions?
Any ref app. notes to guide us how to connect from 33033 to 8881E would be appreciated.

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

You need one DRV8881E per turntable motor. The DRV8881E has four half bridges.
According to the MC33033, one phase will be high, one phase will be low, and the other two phases are off.
The DRV8881E can be configured to do this with external logic to convert the MC33033 outputs to inputs at the DRV8881E.

There are no ref app notes for connecting from the MC33033 to DRV8881E.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

App note for connecting a TI motor controller to 8881E would be fine.

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

We don't have that app note either. The DRV8881E is typically connected to a mcu. The mcu then controls the inputs of the DRV8881E to generate the direction of the current.

For your application, the four outputs of the MC33033 need to be translated to lower voltages and combined using digital logic into signals that can control the inputs of the DRV8881E.

Please refer to the DRV8881EEVM as an example. The user guide, schematics, layout and firmware are available on the page: www.ti.com/.../DRV8881EEVM

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

Thanks Rick. I will try based on this.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

Intellectual 795 points

I will connect the A output on 33033 to PHA of 8881E; B output on 33033 to PHB of 8881E; C of 33033 to PHAEN, D of 33033 to PHBEN. If I need and gates will use SN74L. No need of LDO etc. Make sense?

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

The bottom outputs of the 33033 will violate the absolute maximum input voltage of the DRV8881E. You will need voltage translation to lower the input voltage.

Also connection a 33033 output to a DRV8881E input as described does not appear to provide the desired results at the DRV8881E outputs. There are many online resources that can help you convert the four 33033 outputs into the DRV8881E inputs. You can begin by searching for "digital logic forums".

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

Thanks Rick.

Maybe using the LM4040 to do the voltage translation from the bottom outputs of 33033 to the DRV inputs would solve the issue in your first sentence?

Looked for the "digital logic forum" in TI forums - no luck; or is this is a generic topic? Surprising nothing on this in any of the TI app notes/data.

On a different note, wonder if using the 8881EVM would be easier or it brings its own set of problems?

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

The "digital logic forum" is a generic topic. With this you should be able to find experts that can help you convert the outputs to the necessary inputs.

There are no app notes/data because these are unique use cases. In most applications, the DRV8881E is connected to a mcu that controls the inputs via firmware. The mcu GPIO voltage is less than 5V, so translators are not required.

The DRV8881EEVM allows connection to external circuitry by removing the resistor packs. The voltages presented must be within the absolute maximum ratings.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to Rick Duncan

Intellectual 795 points

Thanks Rick.

Not to be ungrateful, but your suggestion of a digital logic forum is not useful - tried the one in "All about Circuits" and got a reply that it can't be done. The topic is a wide one and to get a sensible reply some knowledge of the motor driver is needed which you don't get in a general forum; that can only come from TI. So, after all that I am still stuck.

0 ken dias over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

Intellectual 795 points

Rick, I replied to you by email and you promised to help (3 days ago friend request) but nothing so far!

0 Wang5577 over 7 years ago in reply to ken dias

TI__Guru 56650 points

Ken,

Rick is on vacation this week. So, the reply could have a delay. I am checking this post now.
TI has a lot of groups and expertise. But, this is analog motor drive forum. We are not the best person to give you the MC33033 (On semi part: www.onsemi.com/.../MC33033-D.PDF ) digital logic.

0 Rick Duncan over 7 years ago in reply to Wang5577

TI__Guru** 114905 points

Hi Ken,

Sorry for the delayed response. I was not available last week.

I replied via private message. Look for an update later today.

Interface

Interface forum

4 phase control