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CD4059A: counter 'freezing' with quickly changing jam inputs (part 2)

Part Number: CD4059A

I'd like to revisit the subject of my previous thread which was never resolved; unfortunately I wasn't able to work on this project for some time and so the thread has been locked in the meantime, so I'm starting a new one. the original is here.

To answer Dylan's questions from his last post, the mode pins are indeed remaining unchanged, and as far as the relationship between the time the output stays low and the input frequency, I can give for example the case of a 29.9kHz input causing the output to stay low for 355ms, so presumably about 10600 cycles (29.9kHz x 355ms).

To clarify my design goals: my max input frequency is 154kHz, and the max rate at which I'd like to change the jam inputs is about 100Hz.

Through my testing, I've observed that the slower and slower I limit the rate at which the jam inputs can change, it seems that the freezing happens less often. However, I've still observed cases of it freezing even with the fastest changing jam input being something like 55ms (and even that's changing not periodically, but rather sporadically). So unfortunately I'm well off of my target 'refresh rate' for the jam inputs.

One thing I'm wondering is whether there's any chance that the fact that I'm changing several jam inputs at once is also potentially contributing to or even causing this issue? When the jam inputs update happens, I update all of the inputs one after the other pretty quickly (I haven't measured the delay but I believe it should be <50us). I'm wondering if there's any merit in investigating cascading the jam input update; for example, if I inserted a 1ms delay between changing jam inputs. I have 8 inputs to update, so I could still execute the update in ~8ms, achieving my target goal. But if the root cause of this issue is rather just any jam input changing too quickly, then this would actually make the problem worse.

Any further insight on what could be causing this issue, and suggestions for what to try, would be greatly appreciated!

  • Another thing I'm wondering is whether the CDx4HC4059 would perform any better. I see that it takes significantly higher max input frequencies (up to 27MHz for 4.5V supply at 25C, whereas the CD4059 can only take up to 1.5MHz at 5V supply).

  • Hey Ryan,

    Thanks for your post, we will get back to you when we get back to the office on Monday.

    Best,
    Michael

  • Hey Ryan,

    I think this would be worth a try to see the results. Unfortunately, this being a device we acquired from Harris a long time ago its going to be hard tracking down any underlying problems with the device related to the issues you are facing. The datasheet doesn't cover in great detail how the jam inputs should be operated (limitations, things to avoid, etc). It will be something we will have to work together to debug, I will get some samples and get something set up in my lab to do some testing of my own as well. This is the best way I think I can support you with this, unfortunately it make some time. Is this an urgent matter? 

  • Hi Dylan,

    Thanks for getting back to me.

    I ran some testing this weekend on the 74HC4059 and unfortunately it also has the same problem. I can't say definitively whether it's any better or worse, since it doesn't happen systematically but rather somewhat randomly.

    I thought more about my idea of cascading the jam inputs, and actually decided that it made more sense to test reducing the delay between them to be as small as possible, since I imagine maybe each time an input changes, it's a potential for the problem to occur. I figured that if I could get the inputs to all update so quickly that it would be seen as 'simultaneous', then maybe that could help. There was a delay of about 300us between setting my MCU output pins that are directly driving the jam inputs (I'm actually only changing 7, not 8 as I mentioned in the previous post. And actually the most that I change in a given update is 6 out of the 7) I reduced the delay to 250ns, so all of the inputs should now be being updated in <2us. Thinking about it more now though, I'm wondering if that is fast enough to be considered 'simultaneous'. Maybe it would still be worthwhile investigating the cascading of the input changes as I originally wanted to try; I think I'll test that this evening.

    I was able to reproduce the fault even when limiting my max refresh rate to 50ms, so that might also point to the delay between setting inputs as being an issue; if that's seen as separate updates, then I'd still get the issue independently of how long I make my global refresh rate. 50ms seems like it should definitely be enough time to do whatever sampling the counter needs to do to establish the divisor.

    I'm wondering what could cause the output to just go completely blank for so long; I'd think that it'd still output something, even if the frequency were incorrect.

    Ideally I need to have a fix to this issue by the end of the week. I really appreciate your support.

    -Ryan

  • So I just ran a test with 1ms delay between setting each jam input (and I'm still limiting the overall refresh rate to once every 15ms at its fastest) and I can say that it's definitely worse.  I get the freezing very regularly with this setup.

  • Based on the results of adding the delay making the problem worse, I modified the firmware to simultaneously change all the inputs, and so far I haven't observed a single case of the issue. I've done quite a bit of testing on a couple units so far, and all good.