Perspective of Tiva-C

Hello Gennady

No, there is no plan to increase the Flash yet. However we an external flash can be interfaced via the EPI.

Regards

Amit

External flash memories are good option when the the program codes are much bigger than 4069K  but the technology may even change internal flash size one day to Gigabyte.

Such larger Flash sizes might be reserved for the recently released M7 core.

Not sure about TI's ambitions and plans here, since it is not yet named as licencee ...

Hello All,

Having a larger internal flash does give performance better than having an external flash (minus the software overhead), but based on the TM4C129 existing features, it would be some time before we up the internal flash. It would be also be a cost v/s market requirements, hence use of EPI as a stepping stone would be worth the effort.

Regards

Amit

Wow i didn't know about the ARM-M7.

I really like MCUs instead of processors and sometimes i need something powerful but a processor simply doesn't have the peripherals to do the task so it's a bit hard. The ARM-M7 looks awesome.

Heh,

The MCUs I used in my earlier days did not have on-board program memory at all.  Sometimes they had little or no RAM.  The variants with re-programmable memory were often one or two orders of magnitude more expensive than without (no joke).  It was expensive enough to place re-programmable program memory in the same package that some manufacturers produced stackable packages where you could place an EPROM in a socket embeded into the top of the MCU package. 

OTP was cheaper but still considerably more expensive than external memory and since you could not reprogram it really wasn't suitable for any device I worked on.

The only other alternative was masked ROM (An alternative that's largely dissappeared) but that requires large NRE charges so only suitable for large volumes where you won't change the software.

I remember starting with a 64K system with 8K RAM (A decent size at the time although the high end bussed systems were larger) and a companion system that used one of the first flash chips which we had to use bank selects to address the large (1Mbit) space.

Now we are getting urgings for expanding on-board flash to multiple-megabytes and devices with more RAM on board than I had program memory.

We do get used to the availability of large amounts don't we?

Not at all pining for the old days in this case, just amused that too much is never enough for us collectively.

Robert

Hello Amit,

May be it will be some another microcontrollers family (may be Tiva-D), may be Cortex-M7... I must be sure that in next 2-3 years I will have possibility to move my project into the more large microcontroller.

Hi,

Did you checked/saw the BeagleBone Black board? (TI, based on Sitara micro)

Petrei

Hello Gennady,

As Petrei mentioned, there is a spectrum of TI devices which range from a low power Cortex-M to high performance Cortex-A's to chose from based on the requirement. So it is not 2-3 years, but now for customers to chose from.

Regards

Amit

Robert Adsett said:

Not at all pining for the old days

Make that two of us, Robert.  Our experience much duplicates that which you well described.  History has value in revealing the, "what, where, when, why, how..."  (credit journalism 101)

Your/my schooling likely included "Fortran" and machine language - and 80 column IBM cards.  (rubber banded into a stack)

I recall Assembler as the only "real/available" means of programming our Mot/Zil/Intel single chip MCUs.  C Compilers finally arrived tailored for MCUs - so happy that day...

From our read (tech tea leaves) ARM M7 may be, "beagle eater..."  Pity that M0, M3, M7 do not walk - this landscape...

cb1_mobile said:

Not at all pining for the old days

Make that two of us, Robert.  Our experience much duplicates that which you well described.  History has value in revealing the why, what, where, how...

Your/my schooling likely included "Fortran" and machine language - and 80 column IBM cards.  (rubber banded into a stack)

[/quote]

 Count me too... On Fortran IV, assembly and tiny basic of course.

 And add manually assembling instruction then load code to prom typing on hexadecimal keyboard of programmer...

 Using a mainframe was a better way of learn about what a more powerful chip of nowaday cannot do..

 Not far than yesterday I was reflecting about the cheap chip MSP430G2553 I am using to do simple switch, encoder and one analog reading then transmitting over a serial line, is more and more powerful of early personal computer we used in the past...

 And now a personal computer with multimegabyte .. pardon gigabyte do much less than on old time with less than a megabyte/kilobyte??? Something sound wrong or not???

Hi,

I was also in Fortran IV league... then moved to Olivetti Programa 101, magnetic cards,... 

Petrei

Petrei said:

I was also in Fortran IV league

Kidz likely "roll their eyes" yet Robert, Roberto, Petrei & cb1 all "cut their programming teeth" via Fortran...

Today's ability to debug/program via JTAG/SWD is expected - taken for granted.  Not so in the past - when we generated our hex files - and dumped to EPROM - and then "prayed" that the 24 traces (16 address, 8 data) - between MCU & memory - were short/open free.  And then (if we were "pro") we covered the EPROM's "window" - and prayed that next code change would occur later - rather than sooner...

Original poster's quest for, "more, more, more" suffers by limiting to single vendor.  Many, many talented firms produce ARM MCUs - unreasonable to expect, "best/brightest" to reside @ single source.   Just like the "olde dayze" leap-frogging (maker vs. maker) often occurs - good investigative skills/awareness pays great dividends...

Add me to the ancient ones with Fortran, assembly, and IBM punch card training.  Simple old school, but I like what we have today better.

At least on university, I escaped Fortran by one year. We were teached the very modern language "C"...

My first steps were with Z80 assembly, and the first PC (if one could call it that way) had just a monitor program. Manual "assembling" and hacking in machine instruction isn't the most productive way, but teaches one something about the very basics. And a certain tenacity - there were no internet fora at that time to ask "stupid" questions.

Hi,

But you must reckognize that at that times the user manuals were clear, without any problems, no silicon bugs... I remember the Osborne manuals for Z80 (which I used and still have, but never had that one for x86). I ask myself why it is no more possible same in these days. Now for a new micro, I read first of all the silicon errata and if no signs of conficts with my goals, then read the rest...

Petrei

I'm glad there is the internet so i can ask the "stupid" questions.

If not i would not even know what was a transistor before. Only learnt it last year and it was still just "it's a switch". I still haven't learnt what it exactly is, in the university of course.

Have you seen engineering courses today? My course was 5 years + 2 of specialization. Now it's just 5 for all that, 3 the basis and 2 the specialization, dam europe. We barely have time to learn everything so if you blink you lost it. So if i didn't have internet to learn on the side it would be great... not even talking about forums, i'm talking about information available online. Digital documents also make it easier to find info (CTRL+F).

You talk about that before the documents and silicon was more reliable and bug free, but now the tech is all rushed. Always trying to produce something new as fast as you can, faster than the rest of the market. Well that will surely go well and not completely create a bug infested product.

Have you seen engineering courses today? My course was 5 years + 2 of specialization. Now it's just 5 for all that, 3 the basis and 2 the specialization, dam europe. We barely have time to learn everything so if you blink you lost it. So if i didn't have internet to learn on the side it would be great... not even talking about forums, i'm talking about information available online. Digital documents also make it easier to find info (CTRL+F).

No, I haven't seen engineering courses lastly. I passed this twenty years ago. And for that matter, I don't regret the rise of the internet, the wealth of information (and crap...) and the fora. I just want to point out that not so long ago, it was harder to get information and help on those subjects. This acted as filter, sorting out the "cursory interested" and less persistent students/amateurs.

You talk about that before the documents and silicon was more reliable and bug free, but now the tech is all rushed. Always trying to produce something new as fast as you can, faster than the rest of the market. Well that will surely go well and not completely create a bug infested product.

That surely was not me.
There has always been good and "not-so-good" hardware/software. Just the amount scaled up the last decades ...

You talk about that before the documents and silicon was more reliable and bug free, but now the tech is all rushed. Always trying to produce something new as fast as you can, faster than the rest of the market. Well that will surely go well and not completely create a bug infested product.

That surely was not me.
There has always been good and "not-so-good" hardware/software. Just the amount scaled up the last decades ...[/quote]

Of course, it would be impossible to not be present. But i was just trying to say, at least in my opinion, what as been happening more and more.

No, I haven't seen engineering courses lastly. I passed this twenty years ago. And for that matter, I don't regret the rise of the internet, the wealth of information (and crap...) and the fora. I just want to point out that not so long ago, it was harder to get information and help on those subjects. This acted as filter, sorting out the "cursory interested" and less persistent students/amateurs.

Eheh, you could be aware of them somehow that was why i asked. That is true. But there's also another side i notice. Some colleagues of mine that are not sure of what to do yet (and they are in the course, yes that happens unfortunately or fortunately for the university pockets), they get decided from the information available. I speak for myself, being in a village, i and almost everyone i know didn't know anything about the matter. So it was hard to anyone to go into computers unless they had their mind really set on it. So now with tech and information getting larger and wider i see kids, actually really smart and hard working kids, getting something as a arduino and start making projects. True arduino is well... arduino, but i'm talking about 14 years-old boys.   

So i think it's worth having a less of a "filter" than before for the matter of getting more "dumb" questions from amateurs. 

Just discussing a bit, not really disagreeing with you

Just discussing a bit, not really disagreeing with you

That's fine, me too.

So now with tech and information getting larger and wider i see kids, actually really smart and hard working kids, getting something as a arduino and start making projects. True arduino is well... arduino, but i'm talking about 14 years-old boys.

Well, the first "high level language" I learned was BASIC. That's because earlier "home computers" had just BASIC as operating system - you booted this thing into a interactive BASIC console.

Well, I hope that didn't harm me too much. In short, I believe not that these kids are lost because the know some arduino. And BTW, I dislike arduino, too.

So i think it's worth having a less of a "filter" than before for the matter of getting more "dumb" questions from amateurs.

I don't mind basic level questions of amateurs. What I really don't like - there are students who got an assigned task in this field, and obviously want to get rid of it as fast as possible, without any effort or time spent in research. They don't want an explanation or guidance, but just a "canned" solution. I have two kids at school, and I fight this sucker-syndrome whenever they try.

I actually started with BASIC too but in a MCU. It was a PIC with the AXE bootloader, a PICAXE. Actually didn't like it... i like C much more.

I only dislike arduino because almost everyone doesn't want to expand since they have it. They seem to even have a aversion at the idea of expanding. I used alot Energia which i like Arduino and that gave me a starting point to start programming the Tiva and MSP430, now i try to avoid it of course.

I don't mind basic level questions of amateurs. What I really don't like - there are students who got an assigned task in this field, and obviously want to get rid of it as fast as possible, without any effort or time spent in research. They don't want an explanation or guidance, but just a "canned" solution. I have two kids at school, and I fight this sucker-syndrome whenever they try.

Yea i get that allot in the club i am in since i give some classes, or better, guidance in Tiva and a bit of Arduino. So many people just come and simply ask, almost demand, a way to do something. But since they don't really know and don't want to know it would end up with just being me doing the work so... no thank you. "I can give you links or books to learn how to do it, ii'm not going to make the work for you".

f. m. said:

Well, I hope that didn't harm me too much. In short, I believe not that these kids are lost because the know some arduino. And BTW, I dislike arduino, too.

 Happy se we share same perspection, Arduino fooled up my student few year ago, is simple is better .. NOOOOOOO Is a prehistoric piece of hardware stone not a modern teaching platform....

f. m. said:

What I really don't like - there are students who got an assigned task in this field, and obviously want to get rid of it as fast as possible, without any effort or time spent in research. They don't want an explanation or guidance, but just a "canned" solution. I have two kids at school, and I fight this sucker-syndrome whenever they try.

 I also like your point of view, please don't stop try them grow up and learn to be better.

 Too many come here or somewhere to ask solve all problem never learn how to do. School, in Europe first and I felt in USA too was disrupted from this commercial point of view.

 Please help also save all the children from this closure of imagination and intelligent usage of things. We need save energy not brain power!

 Forever grateful read all your word.

Luis Afonso said:

Yea i get that allot in the club i am in since i give some classes, or better, guidance in Tiva and a bit of Arduino. So many people just come and simply ask, almost demand, a way to do something. But since they don't really know and don't want to know it would end up with just being me doing the work so... no thank you. "I can give you links or books to learn how to do it, ii'm not going to make the work for you"

 This is good, Luis when I attended university Internet was at starting point and just some idea of modem and BBS where in place, we shared all experience and power of communication, book where the best way to learn.

 Today people waste a lot of time on internet but internet information quantity has collapsed a lot comparing when it was character based only. I accessed first BBS from my Z80 system and modem was a bank of filter and operational on a dedicated board.

 Nowaday people want all done for nothing and this is wrong, so no problem if you are beginner level, you got assistance too. If you come here and tell us "please do the things to solve my trouble..." then I assure you none help you.

 My goal was to split forum, as a beginner you can have better assistance and if you are determined to learn is not so difficult to gain the privilege to access professional level. On the other side we save the effort to evaluate at which level you are.

 Level is not point gained by wild posting but are level of competence.

Luis Afonso said:

Have you seen engineering courses today? My course was 5 years + 2 of specialization. Now it's just 5 for all that, 3 the basis and 2 the specialization, dam europe. We barely have time to learn everything so if you blink you lost it. So if i didn't have internet to learn on the side it would be great... not even talking about forums, i'm talking about information available online. Digital documents also make it easier to find info (CTRL+F).

Your comment about engineering courses made me want to reply.  I don't have quite the same complaint, but here in the U.S., as might be in other parts of the world, every interesting-sounding class is just another math class.  Communications, DSP, image processing?  Math and math only.   Yes I know these topics are fundamentally math, but after completing one of these classes, I would be no more able to implement anything on hardware.  

Well, just consider this. How many points we are getting from just this discussion. Obviously we are showing how competent we are (sarcasm). Although it's an interesting discussion, do you think we should get points for this? A bit misleading since it's a discussion/conversation not a knowledge contribution to solve a problem (at least a programming/electronic problem).

I actually don't completely reject arduino. It's good for beginners. But that's just it! Beginners! You can't expand if you keep with it forever. 

Since my "classes" i give to 1 friend are... well.. public and anyone in the club, if they are in room, can see, i got 2 more people into Tiva programming (still with only TivaWare, not many registers let's not scare them). And i have only made 3 classes yet. All of them actually went straight into Tiva, they only blinked a LED with Arduino (and of course had C++ programming classes). I direct the newbies to Arduino since i can't have time for everyone but since i'm the only member actually giving classes a fixed hour (the rest gives support when asked but they allot of work already) so they are all interested on the Tiva although they look at it and it seems harder.

Maybe with this i'll get not just 1 as i planned (already got 1 more member than expected) programming with Tiva to the fullest. Which is great since we only learn this (actual MCU programming with registers and C) in the 4th year and it's with PIC. We're all 3rd year tops. (Let's wait and see)

Yes jrm,

I suffer from the same problem. Until the 3rd year is a ton of theoretical and math. Nothing else. It's a bit frustrating don't you agree? Not actually making or feeling like you can make something besides math.

That's why the students created a club where students teach each other and we have more practical activities like contests.

I'll try to explain my complaint:

I have math. Before the Bolonha agreement i had 5 years to graduate in general electronics. Well i had 5 maths. Now i have 3 Maths. But the knowledge obtain has to be the same. Well when you have a teacher telling me that when he's teaching us the class, and i quote "I have to contain myself from laughing, i don't know how you are going to learn all this in so little time". Everything is rushed and pilled on us. Well that, adding to the fact it's all theoretical just adds frustration. Of course because of that overwhelming amount of information we need to know i need to study my myself allot since the teacher support hours aren't all day. Internet is my main help in the matter since books are so expensive, and i find much easier and faster to find info in digital format.

That's correct, most of this IT stuff starts with math. That is so because microprocessors (and MCUs) are quite good at that, i.e. everthing that can be broken down to additions/subtractions/multiplications/divisions. And math is just a formalistic way to note algorithms for solving real-world problems. The symbols used are strange sometimes, and (admittedly) I didn't really love it. But, being 20 years around in the industry, I can tell it is often useful ...

Luis Afonso said:

Well, just consider this. How many points we are getting from just this discussion. Obviously we are showing how competent we are (sarcasm). Although it's an interesting discussion, do you think we should get points for this?

 I am not interested collect point, just help grow up!!! When I encounter trouble I post here, I can get some hint and increase my knowledge too. Problem I am solving are more than I got solved but having some friend here helped me share the point and try find a solution. My first issue was a stack overflow.... I measured as forever max stack grow from a timer interrupt, that time stack never surpassed the stack I was thinking as allocated... After a long discussion and another unsuccessful increase of stack finally I browsed all CCS setting and I discovered what was wrong: Stack was set in two point and only the one in IDE graphical was effective not the one in the file.... Stack was forever at default of 512 !!

 This and all bug and issue of CCS plus TIVA silicon on network raised my point to Guru level. Now we have the knowledge of how to have reliable network connection on TIVA.

Luis Afonso said:

so they are all interested on the Tiva although they look at it and it seems harder.

 TIVA 123 is relatively simple but all default and trick are not so simple to grasp for a beginner and I still say I feel beginner mode.

 TIVA 129 complexity is many fold bigger, so a beginner was using ardustuff never gain knowledge to program TIVA. A linux programmer has a lot more chances to fast grasp API at almost similar to Linux one.

Luis Afonso said:

which is great since we only learn this (actual MCU programming with registers and C) in the 4th year and it's with PIC. We're all 3rd year tops. (Let's wait and see)

PIC ??? uhm.. I dislike same as Arduino, less power and just assembly, accumulator oriented instruction  and slow and expensive dev kit!!!

 I am not interested collect point ...

Me neither. I don't know on what base one's 'status' gets updated. But as new users are already 'prodigies', how much does a 'guru' count ? BTW, my Amiga (late '80 ... mid '90 PC) sometimes went into '"guru meditations", being the equivalent of a hardfault. Not sure if I wanna be a guru ...

PIC ??? uhm.. I dislike same as Arduino, less power and just assembly, accumulator oriented instruction  and slow and expensive dev kit!!!

That stuff, being basically a mid-seventies design, is still around. While the (PIC16/18) core is really crap, it lives mostly from it's peripherals, and legacy customers requiring pin-to-pin compatibility.

On the other end, IMHO a Cortex M4 (and similiar cores) currently mark the limit for bare-metal design projects. This might be a reason that silicon providers seem reluctant to push this cores up in performance, memory size, and price (to harken back to the OP's question). Not sure if the Cortex M7 becomes a real blockbuster. Cheap Cortex A devices might eat away that market, easing SW development with OS support.

I also really don't like PIC... but unfortunately it seems i have to use it... tried it once, hated it

Luis Afonso said:

I also really don't like PIC... but unfortunately it seems i have to use it... tried it once, hated it

I don't understand all the dislike for PIC.  I use them all the time for lower end stuff (even PIC32 for higher end) and they work great.  The bank switching and hassle on the lower end PICs really stink, but the compiler deals with that.  There's a PIC available for just about any application since there's what seems like a thousand part numbers available.  

Recently I used an 8 pin PIC in an application where I used the onboard A/D, PWM, voltage reference, PLL, and capacitive touch sensing.  There's very little support circuitry because the PIC is doing so much of the work.  Does another company such as Atmel offer similar/better features?  Maybe, I don't know.  I've heard Atmel's core is better which I don't doubt, but Microchip's variety is superb.  

I'm not saying PIC is better.  I simply don't understand the hate that exisits for PIC.  At least they don't EOL major product lines (*cough* Stellaris)

Stellaris was... well i don't really like it either due to the fail it was.

Tiva is... well the going better and i found easy to use.

PIC i don't like because i have a MSP430 for low end  applications and ARM for high end, Tiva and trying to learn how to use STM32

The problem is that i find PIC really hard to find info. Maybe it's the aversion due to PICAXE. It really gave me a hard time since it was such a small MCU and it was in BASIC. Now with a ARM-M4 and C which i like much more i guess i always look at PIC like that.

Maybe i'm just not searching well enough. Maybe i'm just being closed minded since i have both MSP430 and Tiva in mind

jrmymllr said:

 There's very little support circuitry because the PIC is doing so much of the work.  Does another company such as Atmel offer similar/better features?

 Uhm.. My actual MSP430, no xtal, just two capacitor and two resistor, all peripheral coming from switch encoder (2) and a pot setting the gain of internal computing math, an RS485 adaptor and.. sorry this is all at 1 bunch.. Is PIC offering a 16 Mips 16 Bit for same price? G2553 perform better and at lower cost less energy consumption and can withstand 100KBaud communication, interrupt loop speed controller running @24 KHz and also the main loop too.... no limit of two byte pseudo stack and crappy segmentation.

 For less than a pic we get a TIVA.

 No I never use a PIC nor PIC32 where emulator step with a 1Second assembler instruction, ide is winzz locked .. I prefer waste computing power than use a so old expensive part!!!

 I remember when i throw'd all PIC stuff to rubbish to switch MSP, a lot of CPLD resident core was transferred in software for a lowest cost and efficiency.

 Add a personal plus: the FAE laught too many time and was too much sturdy so leave the commercial cry in front of a 40K MSP sold instead of PIC. First time when I opined xor was weak it laught, day after I got  back with reverse program and it laught again also in front of evidence saying again I am not understanding what xor was... Code for reverse was published.....

 14 year are elapsed and life has to elapse!

I never wish have to deal with them!!!!

Roberto Romano said:

 There's very little support circuitry because the PIC is doing so much of the work.  Does another company such as Atmel offer similar/better features?

 Uhm.. My actual MSP430, no xtal, just two capacitor and two resistor, all peripheral coming from switch encoder (2) and a pot setting the gain of internal computing math, an RS485 adaptor and.. sorry this is all at 1 bunch.. Is PIC offering a 16 Mips 16 Bit for same price? G2553 perform better and at lower cost less energy consumption and can withstand 100KBaud communication, interrupt loop speed controller running @24 KHz and also the main loop too.... no limit of two byte pseudo stack and crappy segmentation.

 For less than a pic we get a TIVA.

 No I never use a PIC nor PIC32 where emulator step with a 1Second assembler instruction, ide is winzz locked .. I prefer waste computing power than use a so old expensive part!!!

 I remember when i throw'd all PIC stuff to rubbish to switch MSP, a lot of CPLD resident core was transferred in software for a lowest cost and efficiency.

 Add a personal plus: the FAE laught too many time and was too much sturdy so leave the commercial cry in front of a 40K MSP sold instead of PIC. First time when I opined xor was weak it laught, day after I got  back with reverse program and it laught again also in front of evidence saying again I am not understanding what xor was... Code for reverse was published.....

 14 year are elapsed and life has to elapse!

I never wish have to deal with them!!!!

[/quote]

Again, I'm not saying PIC is superior and everything else is junk.  I'm just wondering why the hate for PIC when they certainly have their applications.  I found an 8 pin MSP430 (which I admittingly have no experience with) and it looks good, although it wouldn't have worked in my application because it's missing capacitive touch.  I also didn't need the power of 16 bits either.  A larger package would have been a problem.

In any case, often PIC does the job and I don't worry about them being discontinued.  For high power, I like TI ARM so I'm not one of those Microchip fanatics. 

Again, I'm not saying PIC is superior and everything else is junk.  I'm just wondering why the hate for PIC when they certainly have their applications

Just speaking for me: I confined my criticism to PIC16/PIC18. This core is really crap. It's basically an mid-'70 design, with 4 clock cycles per instruction, no stack (hardware stack is unusable for C or other HLLs), and other those 'features'. PIC 24 and 32 are better (the latter has a MIPS core), but I don't like to be locked to one provider. A Microchip salesman said once during a promo event in our company "All from one hand". I like to rephrase it to "All in one hand". That is the specific advantage of ARM / Cortex M cores - there are many good vendors, so no one can arm-twist his customers.

While still (absent) this space - Cortex M0 very nicely "fills" low-end requirements - and some can be had for sub 1 (USD) @ Q=100. 

The power of ARM grows - so much new development - new features, performance upgrades & neat new MCU intros.  (can you say Cortex M7?)

Single source solutions always are limiting, risky and price disadvantaged.  (some large firms disallow such "limited purchase" choice w/out special waivers)

As for the "appeal" of 8 pin, single source MCU - do not you force upon yourself/staff special learning, methods & equipment for those, "8 pin applications?"  Low pin count M0's exist (perhaps not yet 8) and enable small tech firms such as mine to, "unify & eliminate" the "hodge-podge" of special equipment, programmers, cables, & "inside knowledge" required by such "low performance - technology long past by" MCUs...

"Total cost analysis" may not look favorably upon non-ARM usage.  (unless volumes are very high - and the non-ARM MCU enjoys vital (and necessary): cost/size/critical other advantages...)

Note that "hate" is absent from this writing - facts in evidence weigh heavily toward the near universal, explosively growing, (deservedly) ARM onslaught...

f. m. said:

Again, I'm not saying PIC is superior and everything else is junk.  I'm just wondering why the hate for PIC when they certainly have their applications