Anyone experienced with DM368IPNC-MT5 Camera ?

Hi Anshuman,

Great, thank you very much for your prompted response.  It helps to confirm my understanding and speculation about the DM368IPNC-MT5 camera and the DM368.

I'd like to learn more about the feasibility of the implementation of MPEG-2 Transport Stream wrapper (TS Video over IP). My application's ultimate goal is using the H264 (or so-called AVC, MPEG-4 Part 10) encoder, I would be less interested in Megapixel JPEG or other MPEG encoding methods.

Regards,

Kien

Hello. 

I belong to a proto-company and we are very interested in DM368IPNC-MT5 IP camera, like the writer of this thread, especially functionality to 720p@60fps recording. 

Talking to the guys at Appropho, we found that although you can process it, the original device has no such functionality (only up to 720p@30fps). It´s possible that Aptina Micron CMOS MT5 sensor itself is the limiting of this function (I haven´t managed to find its technical specifications), but you can get this camera with CMOS sensor Sony IMX036, which is under the MT5 Megapixels (3 compared to 5), that surely can record at 60fps. 

Before making the purchase, wanted to take this opportunity to ask and receive confirmation that indeed, the camera can record at 720p@60fps and if in some future update is intended to support this function without having to edit the source code. If not: is it available the necessary documentation to see if I myself am able to enable the feature I need? From my point of view, the function that highlights this IP Camera is recording at 720p@60fps and not being able to use it takes away a lot of interest to the device. 

A greeting and I apologize for using this space to this question, which I hope is in the right place.

Augusto R. Rodríguez

Hi Augusto,

I am still waiting for fund to buy the SDK. At the same time I have not received any information about next software released as mentioned by Anshuman of TI.

As seen in the previous discussion, and in the TI website:  this design is capable to handle 1280x720P60, unfortunately the ApproPho personnel (Sale Manager) refused to answer my direct question, eventhough I had asked to talk with any technical person, she did not let me talk to any engineer neither. I have tried to call from US to ApproPho in Taiwan, hoped to talk with a techincal personnel but failed...  very frustrated, and disappointed.

BTW, I felt better when got the answer directly  from TI Engineer (Anshuman Saxena), I recalled there were other answers by another TI Engineer named Bernie Thompson. The answer was no longer posted here ???? I also discussed with a local TI Application Engineer, he promised to let me know when the next  released software to support 720P60 feature became available.

I believed the problem is not the limitation of the Aptima  MT9P031 sensor as ApproPho kept saying to you and to me,  the specification of this sensor on Aptina website states its performance is "up to 60 fps at 720P resolution" (mt9p031_flyer.pdf), see it for yourself at:

http://www.aptina.com/products/image_sensors/mt9p031i12stc/#overview

In short, as of today the TI DM368IPNC-MT5 camera does not support 1280x720P60 video yet.

IMHO, Couple good points:  The video quality of this camera even at frame rate of 30 fps is quite good, user interface (Web Browser) is easy to use.

Regards,

Kien

Hello, Kien. 

Thank you for your words. It surprises me a bit the situation, because seeing the last post was April, I thought something would have been solved ... I also wonder a company like Texas Instrument has so little (almost none) background information on the camera (its technical characteristics page is "orphaned", almost: http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/folders/print/dm368ipnc-mt5.html). 

About ApproPho boys, the truth that the moment I'm happy with them because they are solving all of my questions, but it's true I haven´t bought anything. I´m convinced that the camera is a good product and I think that there is nothing the market that comes close to what it offers (well, "theoretically" offers), but then buy something that isn´t specified functions isn´t that gives confidence. It doesn´t help see that since April doesn´t get any information to help you in your needs, which are the same as now I have. 

On the CMOS sensor, you're right, I mistook see the frame rate of 15 fps on the web, but it´s true that describe technical characteristics that can record up to 720p at 60fps, which is contrary to what I have said in ApproPho. What is certain is that they are already equipped with other CMOS cameras that do I know that record at 60fps, but then, if so does MT5, 5 Mpixels prefer the three that offers the Sony CMOS. 

Any information to help you I find, I´ll posting, to see if we can take advantage of this great device to its full capacity. 

Regards and we keep in touch! 

Augusto R.

Hello Kien, Augusto,

I can take care of some of the concerns that you have. I had mentioned in my earlier posts also that 720P60 is not a usecase that is being planned to be shown on IPNC Refernece Design. So that is the reason, we do not have it implemented in the software.

But DM368 IPNC Reference Designs are already out for a while now. It can be ordered at http://www.appropho.com/NewWeb/Product_DM368MT5.php.

We already have a WW general availability release that went out in May 2010 and then a latest one in July 2010. All this software can be downloaded from Appro website or even TI software download site, if you have the account on TI website.

Now coming on the question of performance, i had explained in my earlier post itself that DM368 is capable of doing 720P60 and as you already have figured out that Aptina MT9P031 sensor also supports 720P60. So the IPNC Reference Design system has everything that you need for 720P60, except that it is not implemented in the software. As i know the software details of the product, i know that it needs minor changes in the code to make 720P30 from sensor becoming 720P60. We already have 1080P30 working on DM368 IPNC which guarantees more performance than a 720P60 usecase.

I hope this answers your question. If you have any specific questions about anything on the reference designs, please feel free to contact us or local TI FAEs/Sales.

Regards,

Anshuman

Hello Anshuman,

As I read in this page, the DM368IPNC-MT5  supposed to have the 720p60 feature.

http://focus.ti.com/apps/docs/mrktgenpage.tsp?appId=79&contentId=41246&DCMP=1080p

Your statement:

"I had mentioned in my earlier posts also that 720P60 is not a usecase that is being planned to be shown on IPNC Refernece Design. So that is the reason, we do not have it implemented in the software."

is totally surprised me.

After our last conversation in April/2010, I assumed that TI and/or ApproPho will release a new firmware/software to support  this feature, my plan is purchasing the SDK to implement the MPEG2 Transport Stream to wrap around the video elementary stream produced by the camera for our specific application.

After reading your recent note, my interpretation is TI/ApproPho won't implement the 720p60 feature, but leave it to the users ?

Regards,

Kien

Hello Anshuman,

I appreciated your prompted response and explanation, I have no misunderstanding about the design's performance. Your statement regarding H.264 encode performance by feeding the same 720P capture data (30 fps as in IPNC implementations) to two different encoder instances is a clear explanation to me.

However, your last statement:

"But there is nothing that cannot be done. It is simple change in software to enable 720P60 capture from sensor and rest of the system remains same. I dont think there is any change in the performance numbers that TI is quoting for 720P60 systems."

is very encouraged fact I have just learned, this is exactly what I am looking for: An IP camera can capture 720P60 from the sensor, then output a 720p60 encode video, not capture in 30fps then doubling the output.

Let me be honest with you, to implement the MPEG2 Transport Stream in the current software application is a "daunting" task for us, I wished TI/AppoPho can relieve the burden by implementing the code to capture 720p60 for us. In fact, I had the camera in hand but no SDK and I only have a limitted experience in ARM coding as well as H.264 coding in the design.

Futhermore, as the budget is still in a limbo state, I can't do anything. Until we got the green light for the project, if we (the users) must do the coding for 720p60 feature, it will be sure that I need your help, perhaps a lot of help.

Regards,

Kien

Hello Ashuman and Kien. 

I just read what was written in the forum in reference to the matter. I think I have the situation clear, so I'll say what I think. 

First, I fully understand and it´s clear that the camera may well support the 720p@60fps format natively. Was I also understand that the description of "what could be done" and "what can be done now" is different from what can be understood by reading the product description, this issue should be resolved not to give rise to confusion. 

But on the other hand, the fact remains that the situation of Kien and mine (as well as any person who has / will buy this [I will never tire of saying] wonderful camera) is a bit "delicate."The functionality of video recording at 60 fps is a MUST, that nothing can cover two recording estances resolve. In my case, I want to record sports sequences for analysis later and need all the information possible through the video, no two videos side of the same. That is why this camera is special to that I suggest to use it. In the market exists only a camera of similar characteristics, which is the Cisco 4000 series, but within my priorities remains the model of TI.

The latter leads me to recall the words of Ashuman "As i know the software details of the product, i know that it needs minor changes in the code to make 720P30 from sensor becoming 720P60" and "But there is nothing that cannot be done. It is simple change in software to enable 720P60 capture from sensor and rest of the system remains same. I dont think there is any change in the performance numbers that TI is quoting for 720P60 systems". In both it´s remarked that with a few minor changes can be activated. If it really is something so "insignificant", I wonder if the TI support and/or AprooPho can´t do that little effort to get an update that happy not only to prospective customers who come looking for this product, but those who like Kien have already placed their trust in both companies getting with this camera. 

Greetings, thanks for the cooperation of Ashuman (it's nice that at least someone is making an effort to explain the issue) and many minds to Kien, you will definitely sooner than later get to a point agreed to resolve this issue. 

Augusto R.

Hi Augusto,

I have few Cisco 4000 series cameras in my labs, but I prefer the video quality of TI DM368IPNC-MT5 eventhough it currently captures and outputs 30 fps video.

No "bashing" here, just a friendly sharing observation/information.

Kien

Hi Augusto,

Adding support for 720P60 fps capture has much more overhead than just implementing the feature. When we add support for a feature, we need to go through all combinations of usecases that canbe made with that. All these usecases need to be  validated and supported from a system perspective. This is why we need to check the resourcing before we commit to any new feature.

Additionally, just adding 720P60 capture alone would not be something that can be productized. We would have to add support for encode, streaming and recording. All this needs changes and again validation of the system. But your requirement is only 720P60 capture from sensor.

So, as i said above, it is not the technical issues but the productization and resourcing issues that can effect a decision to add or ignore a feature. But, again, i can give you a snippet of code or guide on how to enable 720P60 capture from sensor. This can help you get over your initial hurdle and continue with your development.

Let me know if it helps.

Regards,

Anshuman

Hello again, Anshuman. 

Thanks again for your response, after several days without receiving any response to our comments I thought we had reached a "dead end" in this issue, so I'm glad to read you. 

The questions you mention, I understand them perfectly and I understand that as a company, implementing a new feature should be controlled so that the end user doesn´t find problems or bugs in the operation. But I guess you also understand our disappointment when we initially thought that the product meets our needs; then it seems that it could, but it does not; then the function implementation isn´t difficult and finally, it seems that isn´t as simple as they seemappeared. 

This doesn´t mean I not value your offerings for help us in this situation, but I guess you understand that to us generate enough insecurity like customers (in addition to the disappointment of thinking that a problem solved in our company becomes in another major problem). 

On the problem at hand, I don´t know if I expressed myself badly or not I don´t understand you said, but I believe that Kien like myself haven´t a problem that is confined solely to the capture at 60fps CMOS sensor, but we need full support, as you said, for capturing, encoding, streaming and recording. 

In my particular case (and I guess in Kien, so I can know, is similar), I need to capture sporting gestures with several cameras for recording on a PC and analyzed later. Being a small company that is starting to have to devote to enable the function for which we buy the cameras isn´t only a time since I have, but we assume that perhaps more problems than solutions. Hence he expected, although it isn´t possible to draw an updated "official", if you could send an "extraofficial" modified software with this feature enabled, so that both Kien as I haven´t to start from 0. Otherwise not have the impudence to ask this, but seeing that the cameras are advertised with the function of 720p @ 60fps, I think it deserves this effort on your part (which AprooPho is trying to do, the more reason for Texas Instrument could plunge to work). 

Anshuman, don´t want you to understand my words as a result of frustration; on the contrary: I´m still confident that you understand the situation before us and I have faith that can help us more than we currently are (you are) offering. I hope that if you could give a moment of reflection to get in our place change your mind. If on the contrary, your last word is that we who must solve the problem, even with your guidance, we must ponder what the next logical step forward. 

A greeting and thanks for your attention and patience. 

Sincerely, 

Augusto Rodriguez R.

Hi Augusto,

I would request you to contact your local TI Sales/FAE who can redirect the questions to R&D team. Meanwhile, i will pass your information to one of our Business Development Managers to discuss further on the options that we can take. Can you share your email id which i can share with our BDM?

I dont think we can have further discussions on the forum as it is moving into feature implementation and requirement spec, rather than a technical support query.

Regards,

Anshuman

Hello, Anshuman.

I think a very wise decision, just like you, I think perhaps this issue can be supported from the specific department and thus better leverage our time and effort.

My email address is: arembrandtrs@gmail.com

Wait patiently for the contact by BDM section, but first thank you again for your patience and commitment.

When everything is finally resolved, I will contact to let you know how the matter has been finalized.

Meanwhile, I wonder whether it´s possible that you linked the documentation you said above about the operation of the camera for our engineer to be revised to provide more information. I tried to consult in a couple of times, but I have no clear where to find it and I guess not too much trouble if I specifically indicate where to find it.

Regards and we keep in touch!

Augusto R. Rodríguez

Hi Anshuman,

I respectfully disagreed with you on moving beyond this discussion which you have categorized as "feature implementation and requirement specification, rather than a technical support query". We are the customers purchased this product according to the specified advertised features. Before I sent the purchase order, I have received a confirmation mail note from Ms. Griffy Wang  (ApproPho's Sale Manager) about the 720p60 feature of the TI DM368IPNC-MT5 camera, I still retain the confirmation note here (if you wished to see, I can post it here along with other messages denied the 720p60 performance).

As I keep emphasizing, without the 720p60 feature this camera is useless for our potential application. The reason: NASA HD TV Standard is 1280x720p60 using H.264 (i.e AVC/MPEG4-part10) at bitrate about 10 mbps. I am exploring a potential usage of the small size camera for some apllications which can be broadcasted as well. We came here to seek/exchange information about the product(s). Thank to the forum's contribution, I realized that the design can perform the advertised feature, but it was left out for unknown reasons. We got deep in to discussing the feature implementation and requirement specs, because we received some answers/responses tended to lead the discussion to the other direction rather than admit the shortfall of design application with respected to the advertised features.

Regarding to contact local TI Sales/FAE, I have appreciated their efforts, unfortunately there is not much information about this new design which they can help here in TX, US as well as Augusto's experience in Sevilla (Spain), again that is the reason we came here.

Previously, we were told:

"But there is nothing that cannot be done. It is simple change in software to enable 720P60 capture from sensor and rest of the system remains same. I dont think there is any change in the performance numbers that TI is quoting for 720P60 systems."

With the limited experience in  codec and ARM coding, I told myself "if worst comes to show", I can do it myself.

Your recent disclose/discussion shown me, I did not know what I would get in to... LOL

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Hi Augusto,

Adding support for 720P60 fps capture has much more overhead than just implementing the feature. When we add support for a feature, we need to go through all combinations of usecases that canbe made with that. All these usecases need to be  validated and supported from a system perspective. This is why we need to check the resourcing before we commit to any new feature.

Additionally, just adding 720P60 capture alone would not be something that can be productized. We would have to add support for encode, streaming and recording. All this needs changes and again validation of the system. But your requirement is only 720P60 capture from sensor.

So, as i said above, it is not the technical issues but the productization and resourcing issues that can effect a decision to add or ignore a feature. But, again, i can give you a snippet of code or guide on how to enable 720P60 capture from sensor. This can help you get over your initial hurdle and continue with your development.

Let me know if it helps.

Regards,

Anshuman

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I do believe this discussion is healthy and within the scope of this forum, I already "suffered" a small setback with my management and colleagues when purchasing a product which does not perform as I presented/promoted in our technical meetings. This week, I almost made a fool of myself again if saying I can change the code to support 60 fps beyond the task to implement the MPEG2 Transport Stream wrapper and modified the user interface browser, which I already made the commitment.

In summary, I expect to see the TI DM368IPNC-MT5 camera's advertised feature, which captures video at 60 fps into the sensor, then produces a 720p60 output stream, not captures 30 fps, then feed in to 2 encoder instances to produce an 720p60 output.

Regards,

Kien Nguyen

Houston, Texas

Anshuman Saxena said:

Hi Augusto,

I would request you to contact your local TI Sales/FAE who can redirect the questions to R&D team. Meanwhile, i will pass your information to one of our Business Development Managers to discuss further on the options that we can take. Can you share your email id which i can share with our BDM?

I dont think we can have further discussions on the forum as it is moving into feature implementation and requirement spec, rather than a technical support query.

Regards,

Anshuman

I own a TI DM368IPNC-MT5 camera, I wished to have the 720p60 feature update.

Please forward my email id to your BDM if necessary: kien.nguyen@nasa.gov.

Sincerely,

Kien

Anshuman Saxena said:

Hi Kien,

I have already passed the details to the right contact people in TI. I hope you should get a communication from them soon.

Regards,

Anshuman

PS: Please mark this post as verified, if you think it has answered your question. Thanks.

Hello Anshuman.

I guess you understand that until the problem is resolved, it´s difficult and contradictory as to make a valid response in the post.

I guess the logical thing is to wait to talk to the DBM and when they finally resolved the situation (I'm sure they will), not only will mark the answer, but will post the excellent treatment that certainly we have received from the you are giving us assistance.

I wanted to leave, at the risk of being pushy and not very patient, whether you would be so kind as to tell us (or provide if it isn´t available online, ´cause you have our mail addreses) the documents required to see how we could modify the camera ourselves. This would give information to our engineer to communicate with your technicians were more fluid and accurate.

A greeting and thanks again!

Augusto R. Rodríguez

Anshuman Saxena said:

Hi Kien,

I have already passed the details to the right contact people in TI. I hope you should get a communication from them soon.

Regards,

Anshuman

PS: Please mark this post as verified, if you think it has answered your question. Thanks.

Hi Anshuman,

Thank a lot for your support.

I hoped there will be a fruitful resolution soon, so I could save face, "regain reputation" among my management,  colleagues.

Sincerely yours,

Kien

Augusto R. Rodriguez said:

.

.............

I wanted to leave, at the risk of being pushy and not very patient, whether you would be so kind as to tell us (or provide if it isn´t available online, ´cause you have our mail addreses) the documents required to see how we could modify the camera ourselves. This would give information to our engineer to communicate with your technicians were more fluid and accurate.

A greeting and thanks again!

Augusto R. Rodríguez

 

Augusto,

IMHO, as you seen Anshuman's previous note disclosed all tasks need to do to productize this feature (720p60). Unless I have had a full understanding of the camera's design, and been a very experienced developper in codec and ARM coding, I'd rather leave the update job to TI/ApproPho.

My 2 cents,

Kien