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TDA3: QSPI/McSPI AC timing

Part Number: TDA3

Hi,

I have some questions about SPI of AC timing as follows:

1)  Is the AC timing time from the point of 50% of based signal amplitude such as the clock?

2)  SS6 of Figure 7-25 McSPI - Slave Mode Transit

 How is SS6 defined setup and hold time of the data signal?

 It is defined min and max values. How do I read the setup and hold time of this data from DM? 

3) SS7 of Figure 7-25 McSPI - Slave Mode Transit

In PHA=1 case, First SS6 is SS7? However, It is also wrong figure as SS7 if first SS6 is SS7.

Regards,

Kenshow

  • Hi Kenshow,

    your question has been forwarded to DM team to comment.

    Regards,
    Yordan
  • Hi Kenshow,

    1)Timings are specified as per provided parameter descriptions.

    2)SS6 is Delay time, spi_sclk active edge to mcspi_somi transition; SS4 is Setup time, spi_d[x] valid before spi_sclk active edge; and SS5 is Hold time, spi_d[x] valid after spi_sclk active edge;
    SS6 have min and max values; SS4 and SS5 have only min. values

    3)SS7 is Delay time, spi_cs[x] active edge to mcspi_somi transition

    Thanks,
    Dian
  • 1)    No. My question is where slop point of based signal to define the delay time. Is it from 50% of amplitude in based clock as below.

    2)    I understood that SS6 defines data output timing from clock. However, I am confused because it is included undefined data time in some cases. I want to know AC timing that is time from clock to start of valid data and to end valid data as below. Which values should I used for them?

     3)    OK

  • Hi Kenshow,

    1) Normally rise and fall times are calculated for 10% to 90% of VDDS with cutoff frequency at -3 dB point. I would recommend you to use those for your calculations.

    2) SS6 is pretty well defined with minimum and maximum times. But for valid data references, you should probably look at setup (SS4) and hold (SS5) times.

    Thanks,
    Dian
  • Hi Dian,

    1) You know that the AC timings are defined as MIN/MAX in DM. Which signal level dose it used to measure the values? 10%, 50% 90% of vdds?

    2)  SS4 and SS5 are defined data input case, not output data signal. So, I think that I can't use them for input signal of out side device.

    I want to know delay time from  spim_sclk to spim_d clearly. I can understand if the SS6 is written the figure as below. 

    If SS6 is as same as 5,6 on above figure, I will understand.

  • Hi Dian,

    I think that my questions are simple.
    if you have any question about my questions, please do not hesitate to ask me.

    Regards,
    Kenshow
  • Hi Kenshow,

    Measuring the signal is normally done at active to active point, i.e. if your active clock edge is rising it is good starting from 90% VDD, if it is falling - 10%VDD. Same is valid for the target signal. It is not common practice to measure on 50% of the signal, as normally this is not a valid signal level, but in general you should get the same result.

    For the second one - my understanding is SS6 should be Delay time, spi_sclk active edge to mcspi_somi end of transition; and spi_sclk active edge to mcspi_somi start of transition should be defined as hold time. Or at least this is the way defined in QSPI diagram.
    I am currently waiting the spec-owner to confirm for McSPI diagram.

    Thanks,
    Dian
  • Hi Dian,

    Thanks for your reply.

    1) I understood your answer. So, this way of thinking is applicable not only to output but also to input?
    I hope that this is written in DM.

    2) I am waiting, too.

    Regards,
    Kenshow
  • Kenshow,

    1) As long as you measure from equal points, you should get the same result (including 50% level). Note that the data manual do not include delays by board routes. I'll try to push on approving/adding this information in DM.

    2) The feedback is that SS6 defines both the min and max delay time in a single parameter. Min value is to start of inactive period and max is to end of it. The diagrams for McSPI will be updated in the DM to remove gray invalid periods.

    Thanks,
    Dian
  • Hi Dian,

    I reconfirm about 2) below.

    > Min value is to start of inactive period and max is to end of it. The diagrams
    > for McSPI will be updated in the DM to remove gray invalid periods.

    I think It is not so good to use expressions of inactive in min / max to remove invalid periods in DM.
    So, the min / max vales mean it is start of active (or valid) period. Is this OK?

    Regards,
    Kenshow
  • Kenshow,

    Minimum value actually is, as I stated above, the hold time from active clock edge to start of transition.
    Maximum value is a delay time from clock edge to end of transition.

    We will work with the team to find the best way to clear this.

    Thanks,
    Dian
  • Hi Dain,

    Are 10%VDD and 90%VDD adopted by TDA3x? Which standard is it?
    I would like to confirm about them because there are input specification as below:

    1.8V Mode
    VIH:0.65*VDDS
    VIL:0.35*VDDS

    3.3V Mode
    VIH:2.0
    VIL:0.8

    Many thanks.
    Kenshow
  • Hi Kenshow,

    Values you are referring are from DC characteristics, which are to provide characteristics of buffer.
    Buffer values vary from type to type. As I state above - if you get equi-points, you will get same result including for 50%.

    Thanks,
    Dian
  • Hi Dain,

    Yes, I know.
    The point of my question is measurement condition in DM for McSPI. I just would like to reconfirm it. Could you let me know whether the measurement condition for TDA3x is 10% and 90%Vdd for McSPI signals or any others.

    Thanks,
    Kenshow
  • Hi Kenshow,

    Yes, all rise and fall times are calculated for 10% to 90% of VDDS. All input and output timing parameters are referenced to Vref for both "0" and "1" logic levels. Vref = (VDDI/O)/2. The default SLEWCONTROL settings in each pad configuration register must be used to guaranteed timings, unless specific instructions otherwise are given in the individual timing sub-sections of the data manual. All timings are tested with an input edge rate of 4 volts per nanosecond (4 V/ns). The timing parameter values specified in the data manual do not include delays by board routes. As a good board design practice, such delays must always be taken into account. Timing values may be adjusted by increasing/decreasing such delays. TI recommends using the available I/O buffer information specification (IBIS) models to analyze the timing characteristics correctly. To properly use IBIS models to attain accurate timing analysis for a given system, see the Using IBIS Models for timing Analysis application report (literature number SPRA839). If needed, external logic hardware such as buffers may be used to compensate any timing differences.

    Thanks,
    Dian

  • Hi Dian,

    I appreciate your response.

    "All input and output timing parameters are referenced to Vref for both "0" and "1" logic levels. Vref = (VDDI/O)/2."
    I suppose this is answer for my 1st question. It means 50%VDD for timing parameters.

    I think that “10% to 90% of VDDS” means rise and fall transition time. In this case, it is used for signal transition time such like I2C SDA, SCL, number 11 and 10 in DM.

    Regards,
    Kenshow
  • Hi Dain,

    Do you have any comments on my understanding in the previous post?

    Regards,
    Kenshow
  • Hi Kenshow,

    All rise and fall times are calculated for 10% to 90% of VDDS.
    All input and output timing parameters are referenced to Vref for both "0" and "1" logic levels. Vref = (VDDI/O)/2.

    My comment above covers general characteristics for measurement process, over recommended operating conditions (unless otherwise noted).

    Thanks,
    Dian
  • Hi Dian,

    I am sorry. I am confused a little because you showed two conditions.
    I would like to confirm my understanding about SS6. I think that the AC timing of measurement condition is (VDD I/O)/2.

    Is it correct?

    Regards,
    Kenshow
  • Hi Kenshow,

    Actually there are five conditions in my post and they are all related to AC timing measurement, depending on what are you trying to measure.
    Yes, you could measure SS6 at Vref = (VDDI/O)/2.

    Another condition you will probably be interested is Test Load Circuit for AC Timing Measurements:

    NOTE: The data sheet provides timing at the device pin. For output timing analysis, the tester pin electronics and its transmission line effects must be taken into account. A transmission line with a delay of 2 ns can be used to produce the desired transmission line effect. The transmission line is intended as a load only. It is not necessary to add or subtract the transmission line delay (2 ns) from the data sheet timings. Input requirements in this data sheet are tested with an input slew rate of < 4 Volts per nanosecond (4 V/ns) at the device pin.

    Thanks,

    Dian

  • Hi Dian,

     Thank you very much.

    Regards,
    Kenshow