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Fail-safe behavior ISO7140CC / ISO7140FCC

Other Parts Discussed in Thread: ISO7140CC, ISO7240CF, ISO7240C, ISO7140FCC

Hi TI-support

In my motor control design I’m using a digital isolator supplied by one of your competitors. This device is causing troubles: While having the isolator’s output supply within specifications but powering-up or down the isolator’s input supply the isolators output behave more or less randomly (independent of the isolator’s input states, which stay stable). As I use these randomly behaving isolator outputs to control power electronics, it happens (not often, but it happens) that the random control signal combination leads to HW damages during power cycles.

Looking around for alternatives I found TI’s digital isolators. The device which would fit nicely in my application is ISO7140CC or ISO7140FCC respectively. If I understood it correctly, the one and only difference between these two devices is the fail safe state; suffix F indicates that default output state is low; otherwise, the default output state is high.

My kind of paranoid questions points to if the TI isolators are facing the same issues as the currently used isolators from your competitor:

1)     In my application I need a determinate isolator output state as long as the isolator’s output supply (Vcc2) is within specs.Of course the isolator output depends on the isolator input state and isolator’s input supply level (Vcc1), but it must be determinate at all levels (0..5V) of the input supply, also for low supply voltage rise/fall times. No undetermined / random spikes are allowed. Can the ISO7140CC / ISO7140FCC guarantee this requirement? I’m asking this question as it is not clear to me out of the datasheet: My interpretation out of the datasheet table_1 is, that while Vcc1 is below 2.1V, the isolator output is in the fail safe state (H or L depending on part suffix). While Vcc1 is above 2.7V, the device is fully operational and the output is equal to the input. But how the device behaves when Vcc1 is between 2.1V and 2.7V? Is the isolator output determined in this condition? If yes, how? If no, what are the device limitations?

2)     What I do not really understand is how the isolator output circuit realizes that the isolator input circuit is not supplied. Is there a kind of watchdog checking the arriving pulses on high- and low-frequency channels? When not receiving pulses for a certain timeout time, the watchdog brings the isolator output into the safe state? I’m asking because I did not find anything in the datasheet nor in application notes slla284 or slyt335. Is there documentation on that topic? Just wondering…

3)     One thing I’m also not sure about is the “under voltage threshold”, shown in Figure_14: My interpretation is the following: When the isolator input supply Vcc1 is below this “under voltage threshold”, the isolator output gets in fail safe state. Means “under voltage threshold” is actually the same as the 2.1V mentioned above (out of the datasheet’s table_1), but the 2.1V is the guaranteed minimum, while figure_14 shows temperature related typical values. Is my interpretation correct?
What also kind of confuses me is Figure 3. There, the under voltage threshold is drawn with 2.7V. Am I misinterpreting something there too?

4)     Is there also a under voltage lockout mechanism supervising the isolator output supply (Vcc2) and preventing the isolator outputs from undefined behavior? (Of course only to a certain level of supply voltage)

5)     Last but not least: Another candidate for my design would be ISO7240C/ISO7240CF: Which part out of ISO7240C/ISO7240CF or ISO7140CC/ISO7140FCC would you recommend for a new design targeting for long product life times?

Many thanks in advance for your help!

Stef

  • Hi Stef,

    You are correct that the "F" notation only refers to the difference in fail-safe operation.

    The situation you describe is very simple, and should not result in any glitches.  If VCC2 is powered on and VCC1 is below the power supply threshold voltage (Figure 14), the output will be in fail-safe.  When VCC1 reaches its power supply threshold, the output will switch from fail-safe to the state of the input (or remain static if the input level matches the fail-safe level) without glitching.

    Regarding (2), the device does not detect the presence or absence of an input "signal".  If VCC2 is powered up and VCC1 is powered down, the output will be in fail-safe.  Otherwise the output will follow the input High or Low.

    (3)  You are correct.  While the minimum operating voltage is specified at 2.7V, Figure 14 shows typical power-up and power-down threshold voltages.  This applies to VCC1 and VCC2.

    I can provide startup waveforms for the different fail-safe and input level conditions, although I'm not sure if I have these parts handy, so it may take a few days.

    None of the parts you mention would be a "better" choice from a product life perspective, as there is no intention of changing the status of any of them.  If this is a concern for you, you can see TI's obsolescence policy here.

  • Hi Bart,

    Many thanks for your fast response!

    To 1)  Regarding your description of the glitch-free transitions in fail-safe state: that’s good news for me! Any documentation or measurements proofing this behavior is very welcome (you mentioned “startup waveforms for the different fail-safe and input level conditions”)! If I could place a wish, please also check for very low supply voltage rise/fall times.
    You surely understand I need to have something in my hands to be assured not facing the same problems as with the current manufacturer.

    To 2) I understand the behavior of the device, but not the “mechanics” behind: The intention of my question is to understand how the isolator output circuit knows when the isolator input circuit is not supplied. The isolator output is determined by the state of the flip-flops (I’m referring to Figure 1 in app note slla284). If these flip-flops are not brought actively into a fail-safe-equivalent state when Vcc1 goes below the supply voltage threshold, the will just keep their state, and the isolator output might not be in fail safe state. My question is how is the “mechanics” behind bringing the flip-flops into the right (fail-safe-equivalent) state. I see different possibilities how this could have been implemented, but I’m interested in the actual implementation. (Sorry for being so picky, but this can be relevant for my application as the device will be operating in an environment with ionizing radiation, which brings a certain probability that flip-flops change their state “unintentionally”)

    10) What also relates with question 2) is the following: The parts which fit to my design (ISO7240C/ISO7240CF/ISO7140CC/ISO7140FCC) have 4 channels, all 4 channels have the same direction. When Vdd1 is going below the supply threshold voltage, are the four outputs of one device transitioning into fail-safe state altogether at the "same time" (within ns) or individually (within us/ms)?

    Many thanks in advance for your feedback!

    Stef

  • Hi Stef,

    If you could specify what you mean by "very low" rise and fall times I can better try to mimic your worst case test condition.

    There is a watchdog circuit on the output side of the device that continuously monitors the presence or absence of activity being received from the input side.  This circuit determines the fail-safe condition of the output.  Unfortunately I do not have any information or experience regarding susceptibility to high radiation environments, but it seems like this condition would warrant the same scrutiny as any other digital circuit in your system.  The typical delay time of the watchdog circuit is specified as tfs in the datasheet.

    The watchdog circuit mentioned above monitors input activity on behalf of all channels, so the delay between channels going into or coming out of a fail-safe condition is dictated by the channel-to-channel output skew time spec, tsk(o).

  • Hi Bart

    Thanks for the fast response.

    Regarding the rise / fall times: I measured worst case ~1V/200ms. Many thanks in advance for your effort in measuring the power-up/down waveforms!

    Regards and happy holiday

    Stef

  • Stef,

    Sorry for the delay.  Here are ISO7140CC waveforms for VCC1 power-up and power-down.

    4527.ISO7140CC Startup Waveforms.pptx

    For this set, the rise and fall time of VCC1 is 50ms.  For rise and fall times in the range you mentioned, the acquisition time of the scope becomes so long that it could be possible to miss short-duration glitches.  I can provide plots for the longer rise and fall times if you would like, or for the ISO7140CF, though that should just be the inverse of the ISO7140CC.

    Hope this helps -- 

  • Hi Bart,

    Many thanks for the waveforms, looks promising!

    It would be great if you could provide me the same measurements (if possible extended with the longer rise/fall times) for the ISO7140CF, as this part turns out to be the best fit for my design.

    Many thanks in advance for your feedback

    Stef  

  • Stef,

    Sorry for the delay.  I received some 'F' parts, and should have time to test them tomorrow and provide the waveforms here.

  • Stef,

    Waveforms here: 2502.ISO7140FCC Startup Waveforms.pptx


    For this set I doubled the rise time to 100ms.  I anticipate diminishing returns associated with going any slower, as it becomes increasingly unlikely that the scope will capture any short glitches.

    Let me know if there are any other issues I can help with --

  • Hi Bart,

    Many thanks for your measurements, very appreciated!

    In the meantime, I ordered and received samples (direct form TI) for further tests; many thanks to TI for the excellent sample service!

    Exploring for my prototype needs, I checked my distributors for availability of ISO7140FCC, without much success. Also from the TI-internal stock information it seems there is no stock at all of this part. So, my question: Is the ISO7140FCC so exotic that nobody else is using it or is it just too new to have the stock filled up? (my fault not having noted that before…)

    For my prototype needs I will require about 100..200 pcs. Can I even get this small quantities, and if yes, how long would it approximately take?

    Thanks for your support

    Stef

     

     

  • Hi Bart,

    Sorry for bothering you again: Could you already find out something related to my questions above (availability of ISO7140FCC).

    Your help is very appreciated!

    thanks,

    Stef

  • Hi Stef,

    I'm not very well versed in the distribution side of things.  Let me check on this and get back to you.

    It looks like you're somewhere in Europe, is that correct?

  • Hi Bart,

    Yes, we are located in Switzerland (development and manufacturing).

    Many thanks in advance for your effort!

    Stef

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