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DS90LV032A: work in combination with other type receivers in fail-safe mode

Part Number: DS90LV032A
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: DS90LV001, SN65LVDS32, SN65LVDS050, SN65LVDS33, SN65LVDS349, DS90LV012A, SN65MLVD048

ATIA/EIA-644-A standard allows multiple receiver operation and I used DS90LV032A and MAX9180 receivers on the one line. Both receivers have fail-safe circuit for termainated input case therefore I supposed correct work. But as a result MAX9180 fail-safe circuit turns up incompatible with undescribed DS90LV032A fail-safe circuit. MAX9180 parallel fail-safe circuit (as it is described in the datasheet and 3662 app note) pulls-up LVDS lines via (232k || 232k) and 1,1M common resistor and DS90LV032A (as it turns out) pulls LVDS line down via undefined resistor or current source, I don' t know. If only DS90LV032 connects to the floating terminated LVDS line, common mode voltage is near 50 mV. If only MAX9180 receiver connected on the floating terminated LVDS line, common mode voltage is near 2,9 V. And when DS90LV032A and MAX9180 connected together to the terminated floating LVDS line, the common mode voltage is near 250 mV and MAX9180 fail-safe circuit does not work. Please describe how to use DS90LV032A receiver mutually with receivers with other fail-safe circuits because DS90LV032A fail-safe circuit details is hidden.

  • Hi Kirill,

    The fails-safe feature described in the datasheet states that unused inputs should not be tied to ground or any other voltages, and just left open. Since the MAX9180 pulls the lines to Vcc then yes, the DS90LV032A will not be compatible with it in a multiple receiver environment. Therefore, you should use receivers that do not violate the DS90LV032A's fail-safe requirement. For example, the DS90LV001 or even just more DS90LV032As.

    Please also note that the DS90LV032A is compatible with the TIA/EIA-644 standard, not the TIA/EIA-644-A standard. The TIA/EIA-644 standard does not specify support for multidrop operation, and only requires support for point-to-point operation. 

    Regards,

    I.K.

  • Hi I.K.,

    I agree that based on the datasheet data, DS90LV032A fail safe circuit may work incorrect when located in common with MAX9180. But in my application I don't worry about DS90LV032A logic output during fail-safe condition. My main problem is that DS90LV032A fail safe circuit leads to MAX9180 fail-safe circuit incorrect work and, as I understand, will also hit most modern receivers (SN65LVDS32 for example). DS90LV032A datasheet describes that fail-safe circuit source or sink a small amount of current but doesn't describes that it leads to change LVDS line common mode voltage. And furthermore it don't just shift common mode voltage but pulls to the ground which is incompatible with main modern LVDS receivers.

    Concerning TIA/EIA-644 standard, as I understand, is equal to SP-3357 document which contains paragraph "5.4.1 Multiple receiver operation".

  • Dear I.K.,

    I studied in more detail TIA/EIA-644 standard history and I am apologise for my reply. I agree with you that TIA/EIA-644-1995 version does not contain multiple receiver operation. But could you please clarify which modern receivers from TI correspond to TIA/EIA-644-A standard? Because some recivers (for example SN65LVDS050) marked as "meets TIA/EIA-644-1995 Standard" but the majority (like DS90LV032A) marked as "compatible with ANSI/TIA/EIA-644" without details. 

    And concerning fail-safe circuit, as I understand, it is even impossible to put neighboring families receivers on one line. For example, SN65LVDS32 fail-safe circuit will not operate together with SN65LVDS33, but SN65LVDS33 fail-safe circuit will operate correctly anyway. Am I right? It will be perfect to have any note or guidelines to underatand which families can be located on one LVDS line with correct fail-safe and which families cannot.

    Regards

  • Hi Kirill,

    Unless specifically stated in the datasheet, you should only assume that devices that are compatible with the ANSI TIA/EIA-644-A standard can be used in a multidrop environment. For example, DS90LV012A, SN65LVDS349 are compatible with TIA/EIA-644-A so they can be used in a multidrop environment. 

    M-LVDS devices (e.g. SN65MLVD048) are even better suited for multidrop applications. 

    Looking at the failsafe operation of the SN65LVDS32 and SN65LVDS33 they look compatible to me. The SN65LVDS32 will pull both lines up to Vcc during a fail-safe condition, and since the differential voltage would still be 0, the SN65LVDS33 will also be put in a fail-safe state due to the window comparators.

    Regards,

    I.K. 

  • Hi, I.K.,

    Thanks for the quick detailed answer. I have only one little clarifying question left. Do you suppose that SN65LVDS33 fail-safe circuit sets common mode potential on floating LVDS line near Vcc through attenuation network? And doesn't futher receiver scheme based on bipolar transistor and current sink affect common mode on floating LVDS line? If SN65LVDS33 tie floating LVDS to potential near VCC it should work corectly with SN65LVDS32 and it would solve my problem.

    Regards

  • Hi Kiril,

    Looking at the IBIS simulation it looks like both lines are pulled to ~1.452V when left floating.

    Regards,

    I.K.

  • Hi I.K.,

    Thank you for simulating and for great idea to use IBIS simulation. I simulated SN65LVDS32 and SN65LVDS33 LVDS inputs on one terminated floating LVDS line and common mode voltage was ~2.3 V. SN65LVDS32 fail safe comparator threshold also ~ 2,3 V too. Therefore in such combination SN65LVDS32 fail-safe curcuit will work at least unreliable. Could you please confirm my estimation?

    Regards

  • Hi Kirill,

    Ah yes that's correct, it's too close to the threshold voltage of the AND gate. Looks like the attenuation network in the SN65LVDS33 makes it incompatible with the SN65LVDS32 in a multidrop environment.

    Regards,

    I.K. 

  • Hi I.K.,

    Thanks for your confirmation. I understood in general fail-safe curcuit compatibility in a multidrop application for TI main LVDS receivers. But it will be perfect if you issue or update application note about LVDS fail-safe in multidrop applications. Because it is a "blank spot" now. In addition the AN-1194 (SNLA051C) document describes external fail-safe circuit for National Semiconductor's receivers but there is not similar document for TI receivers. Is this technics can be used for TI receivers (SN65LVDS32, for example) too?

    Regards

  • Hi Kirill,

    That application note is only for reference. Failsafe biasing of LVDS receivers is vendor and device specific.The respective LVDS receiver datasheets should be reviewed to determine if and what type of failsafe support is provided by the specific circuit. Also, some implementations of failsafe biasing may not be compatible with others. The details of the SN65LVDS32 fail-safe is in the datasheet.

    Regards,

    I.K.

  • Hi I.K.,

    Thank you for tech support.

    Regards