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UCC28782EVM-030: UCC28782 document SLUAAF9

Part Number: UCC28782EVM-030
Other Parts Discussed in Thread: UCC28782, ISO7710

PL SEE ATTACHED. 

Wondering if the document needs to be updated.

riso7710delay.pptx

  • Hello Robin, 

    Thank you for pointing out a discrepancy in our "UCC28782 System Bring Up Guideline and Common Issues" document.

    The 0.3us delay time number that you quote from the ISO7710F datasheet refers to a "power-off" delay when its bias power falls below 1.7V, not to a "power-on" delay.
    I could find no reference to any power-on delay time.

    Nevertheless, after reviewing the Figures 4-10 and 4-11, I do believe that the typical power-on delay for ISO7710F is greater than the 31us stated in Section 4.3.3 of TI literature number SLUAAF9.  I think the error may stem from looking at Figure 4-11 which is a zoom-in of Figure 4-10. 
    In 4-11, the zoomed sweep is 10us/div and the note "PWMH partial turn on at here" is pointing to a moment about 31us from the left edge of that screen shot.  

    In reality, Figure 4-10 (itself a zoom, at 100us/div) shows PWMH drive pulses (pink trace) starting about 170us before the high-side FET actually starts switching (green trace larger amplitude).  Moreover, the controller is transitioning from SPB2 mode (with several seconds of dead time) to AAM on a 100% load step and this transition starts at the vertical cursor "a".   The SR_FET_Vds (red trace) indicates low-side switching from PWML signals.  These low-side pulses indirectly serve to charge up the boot-strap capacitor of the high-side driver, but it is not clear how long that charge lasts before it is drawn down below driver UVLO due to lack of further switching.   
    But as PWML pulses begin to cluster closer together (to the right of cursor "a"), the high-side isolator/driver will maintain a sufficient bias voltage on both sides of the driver and the actual power-on delay starts from that point.  

    Therefore, the actual typical power-on delay time for the ISO7710F has a value somewhere between 420us and 170us, based on where the PWML pulses group together sufficiently closely to avoid UVLO of the ISO7710F.

    Regards,
    Ulrich

  • Hello Ulrich:

    Here is a very tough situation: seeking your help!

    So this one module where we have been experimenting with xmfr winding:  it is a pretty stable, dependable robust assembly. As I reported, DIY Litz wire got us 64 deg C temp inside the windings...from 95 degC at 68W/20V

    We tried a "better" litz DIY, with 6uH lkg( turns out total if you shorted all coils, it is 10uH!)- which caused massive damage to parts: output MOSFET, controller, depletion switch TVS...controller...so we changed them all to new.

    Put back the "64 degC " xmfr, but it won't even give out 1 pulse. 

    0 nada.

    So we changed the 2 of the NV6117, the ISO7710, tried again : 0 pulse, nada, 

    Now, we reflowed the assy - suspecting maybe new parts did not assemble well the first time.

    0 Pulse. Zilch.

    We have to stop trying: BUT  what if this happens as we go into "pilot" runs of hundreds of assemblies & several do not WORK?

    is IT CONCEIVABLE THAT WE BRING THIS PARTICULAR ASSY AND 2 OTHERS (WORKING ASSY) TO SOME LAB WHERE YOU GUYS WORK & REALLY FIND OUT WHAT EXACTLY GOES WRONG WHEN 0 PULSE OCCURS?

    It is too risky for us to engage in any higher-vol assembly with this sword of Damocles hanging on us.

    Let me know a way out.

    Thnx

    -robin

  • Hello Robin, 

    We are not in a position to accept customer boards and debug them.  We try to help customers do their own debugging by providing advice based on the extent of the information provided to us by the customer.  More information is better, and hard numbers are preferable over qualitative descriptions, where possible.  Especially well-identified waveforms with the complete operating conditions under which they were acquired.  (Much of this reply may be obvious to you, but is for the benefit of other readers of this forum.)
    Also, refer to my reply to your parallel thread, about re-entering all of the design and component changes you have made into the Excel calculator tool to obtain the updated control parameters and values need to accommodate the revisions.  In ACF, it seems like everything interacts with everything else, so you can't make one change without also changing something else to compensate, or operation will deteriorate.  

    Based on the scenario above, your debug procedure would be to slowly bring up the board as if it were a new design and check each stage to verify that the signals look like they are supposed to look like at that stage.  When something doesn't look as expected, then investigate until the cause is found and corrected and the signals do look right.  Proceed further until the next abnormal thing is encountered, then debug that.  Inspect the board for solder shorts, opens, reversed polarity, etc first before applying power.  

    I start by applying 5Vac (using programmable ac source) and verifying that there is about 7V on the bulk caps. If not, find out why and fix.  If okay, its not enough to charge VDD, so raise up to 10Vac.  VDD should start to charge up through the depl-Fet, but may not make it to 17Vdc.  If it's not rising, debug.  If okay, raise to 20Vac.  Now, VDD should make it to 17.5V to start the IC and it should try to drive the low-side Fet through PWML.  But there is not enough Vbulk to meet the criterion on CS to reach 0.2V within 2us, so there should be only a single pulse (thinking there is a shorted CS to GND), then the IC should wait 1.5 seconds (while VDD cycles) before trying another PWML pulse. If okay, then raise Vac a little further.  Eventually, you should see 3 pulses.  Etc... Etc...  Bring up the board a little at a time.

    You need to be able to probe PWML and PWMH signals themselves somewhere because you can't rely on the Fets to tell you if the signals are active or not, if the Fets or their drivers are dead.  And you can't get pulses out of the transformer or the Fets if the IC is not pulsing. The high-side driver bootstrap VDD can be checked by probing from primary GND and comparing to the switching node voltage while VAC is still relatively low, like at 50Vac or so.  A 10-15V difference from HB to HS should be discernable on a 20V/div scale to prove that the bootstrap works even though the high side may not be driven yet.   

    If there are additional circuits that are not directly related to the ACF conversion, such as downstream converters or USB controllers, etc, it may be prudent to disable or bypass them to focus on getting the main ACF plant to work properly.  Once that is working nominally to full power under normal conditions, and all stresses are verified to be within ratings, one of the other circuits can be introduced to assess its functionality and its affect on the ACF stage.  Introduce one change at a time, and verify that nothing bad is happening somewhere at all corners of normal operation. Debug any problems before adding another change.  Eventually you'll get the whole system running as expected with stresses and temperature rises as expected. 

    If one board is so far damaged that you're replacing almost everything, I suggest to abandon it and start with a fresh board from the beginning as described above.  That way, if there are an issue introduced by the board design itself, such as a short circuit or noise coupling, it may be caught earlier in the bring-up before it can escalate to wide-spread damage.  The pcb always has the possibility of having parasitics and issues not modeled by a perfectly working schematic diagram.  And a heavily-reworked board may have some undetected damage to tracks or pads and cause frustrating repeats of failures for what seems like no apparent reason.  

    You mention that you have 2 other working assemblies.  I suggest to take one and bring it up as if it was the very first prototype, to assess all of the stresses on all of the components at each stage of operation.  You can head-off a trend of unexpected increasing stress.  Meanwhile, build up a fourth  board to replace the first one (with all the failures). When all three are running normally as expected, you can gradually introduce any required abnormal conditions and assess their performance.  Once they all pass, you can increase a pilot run with high confidence.  

    Regards,
    Ulrich

  • ok, thnx much. will try to continue as you describe.

  • Hello Ulrich:

    It took a lot of time to really follow what you wrote- to the letter!

    And some important things came up. Bear in mind, we have gone through an extensive amount of proto-building, failures, rebuilding & retesting. So, we have some "zen" sense of the circuit...

    #1: the spreadsheet for calculating values for UCC28782 is SLURAZ0C, not SLUUC664 REVC!- I have forever been stuck to this latter. Error #1

    #2)Based on the values given in the Evalkit, I recalculated key values for our case. We use a bigger depletion device, NV6117 in both primary switches, and SR is still under test. For now due to the difficulty of manual assembly of EPC, we are most likely going to use a D2PAK - so happens that it can be most conveniently installed in our board. For now, we cannot find BSC093N150 ...not until Sept 23(!!), and the close equivalent is another D2pak, but we have not received them yet. So we will run the next batch with IDP200N15.

    So the calculations are done with these in the circuit.

    Our input/output for this calculation are the same as the Eval kit.

    Would you pl give it a look?

    Monday we will "rework" a  functional board with these values- it is functional BUT DOES HAVE some peculiar behavior. I am suspecting, your comments warning proper topological info be used in the calculations, may have the fix. We will find out.

    Thnx as always for your intensive help!

    -rUCC28782 Excel DesignRevC_rg_ixty01_ipd200.xlsx

  • Hello Robin, 

    Sorry for my delayed reply; I was off for a couple of days. 
    I have reviewed your Excel design tool file and I found no "earth-shattering" problems, but there are several entries that can stand reconsideration. 

    On the 'Begin Here' sheet,  
    At D32, you set the OPP threshold to 150% of rated output power (65W), which means that the design can deliver 97W continuously without shut down.  Furthermore, OPP is the threshold where the 160-ms timer starts, so another 1.33x power (130W = 6.5A, 20V) can be delivered for 160ms. 
    If this is intentional, then okay.  But it looks like a USB-PD application, which typically would limit power closer to 110% OPP level. 
    At D63, I suggest to change from ISO7710F to ISO7310F, which used an edge-triggered input-to-output path, rather than level-triggered. 
    At D88, I think the small cap value should be closer to 300pF.

    On the 'Calc' sheet,
    At D59, chosen LM is higher than the recommended value.  Iterating fSW_min lower  (at 'Begin Here' D35) to 126kHz makes recommended = your choice. 
    At D104, your chosen Rcs value is much lower than the recommended value, which already takes the 150% OPP into account. So it would let even more power through, than what I mentioned above.  Changes here will affect the choice for RDM at D120.
    At D116, the result doesn't match D102 close enough.  Iterating would improve Ropp value choice. 
    At D126, your RTZ choice is much lower than the recommended value at D125.
    At D200, it is off target because D198 value is too high. 

    On the 'BUR' sheet,
    At D19, the value is lower than the 100mV recommended in the instructions. 

    I don't think any of these issues would prevent basic operation, but designing closer to the recommendation should improve controllability and reduce unexpected behavior .  

    Regards,
    Ulrich

  • Hello Ulrich:

    Infinitely grateful for your precious corrective actions.  Everything you suggested/noted/remarked is consistent with the goals: so we updated the Spreadsheet as you noted & now everything seems to fall in place!

    Lm is entirely under our control, using the suggested value is not a penalty. 

    I think if it appeared to us Rcs was limiting peak current, it would seem for other reasons - you point them out - so we can use .22 / SMD 2512 which we have.

    Cannot get ISO7310 yet, but have IPL510.( from NVE Spin electronics folks)..darned thing has a different pinout, but can manage for this series.

    An update: we found we cannot use really any MOSFET for SR at this time( requires a heat sink we did not plan for)- gets to 80 deg C with 68W OUTPUT - so we are going back to EPC2034 WITH A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN ASSEMBLY PROCESS. 

     EPC2034C will get to 48 deg C within the same constraints!

    Another uplifting info: we succeeded in making a DIY Litz wire much better version. Temp rise was back to 64 deg C inside the core.

    This surely cannot be made in "planar " version. This is also not a problem- we can stay with a wired version. 

    The dramatic change is that we are installing a DIY video setup to look at the part for alignment & another for vision during the vacuum release event.

    We have a very simple pick-place system (from Canada).

    And we are going to get the first batch through the x-ray to make sure  EPC is well soldered & the others as a bonus . Scheduled for next Thursday.

    Goal will be to use updated BOM, updated litz-wire xmfr, and much-enhanced assembly: then GO!

    Thnx again.

    r